Apostrophes In The Modern World

[Theland]

Are the rules of grammar so dynamic that aposrophe s, and s apostrophe are now interchangeable. Do schools not bother with this rule anymore? Is it commonly accepted to use either anywhere?
I often see notices or work related e mails, messages etc where it seems this once rigid rule is totally forgotten.

[Quizmonkey]

The two are never interchangeable in any context of 'correctness' - you are just seeing examples of ignorance. I would be surprised if any schools today actually teach grammar at all, let alone punctuation.

As most retail chains now seem to be dropping apostrophes altogether in their displays (mens, childrens etc - even in Next), it doesn't help the 'man on the street' learn the correct use.

[Theland]

That's it! It's walking around shops and seeing big expensively printed notices and advertisements that are wrong.
Kids don't get the exposure then to good grammar, or spelling and nobody seems bothered.

[moppettshow]

Not quite on apostrophes, but what really bugs me is signs in supermarkets saying '10 items or less'... it should be 'fewer', not less. M&S get this right, actually, so fair play to them.
Rant over.

[jenstar]

The fact that retail chains can use "mens", "childrens", etc. surely demonstrates how dispensible apostophes are. Particularly as "men" and "children" are already plural and therefore adding an "s" is in no way ambiguous.

In fact, considering English grammar already has so many arbitrary rules that exist purely so that pedants can moan about their non-observance, it's actually quite surprising that there isn't a "no apostrophes on already plural nouns" rule. There, that's a brand new arbitrary rule I've just made up which tedious pedantic ******* might like to insist upon for no reason in future.

[Theland]

jenstar - My generation suffered so much at the hands of teachers who insisted on keeping the rules - lines, detentions, stocks and pillory, yet suddenly the rules are .... gone!

But if the rules keep getting thrown out, will we one day communicate with "text talk" or whatever it's called?

[Clanad]

Being a self-proclaimed and rather ardent pedant myself, I have to ask if the obvious point isn't being overlooked. That being the primary use of the apostrophe to denote ownership. In the examples cited (men's, children's, etc.) it is of great importance to the preservation of meaning in the English language to not only use, but pass on correct useage of seemingly insignificant tools. Mens is the plural of man, however men's must be used to denote the possessive. Mans cannot be the plural of man, but it can be used with the apostrophe and only the apostrophe to denote the possessive, i.e., man's ( possessive pronouns ending in s excepted).
Theland's reference to text-talk is a excellent reminder of where our language is headed when time honored precepts are disregarded, in my pedantic opinion...

[bednobs]

sign outside my village shop says

pie's
pasty's
newspaper's
sold here

now it annoys the hell out of me, but i can live with it, as there is no ambiguity over what they are saying (although i have to admit it makes me go "grrrr" inside when i go past).
I wouldn't dare mention it to the shopkeeper cause i like him and i don't want him to bash me over the head!

[Loosehead]

But surely, Clanad, as Men is referring to more than one it should be Mens' ! Just a theory I don't actually know!

[bednobs]

hmm i can hear my english teacher now "turn it into an "of the" sentance bednobs"

so it's the clothes of men
No s on the end
therefore men's clothes, surely?

[Jackanory]

Click below for the Apostrophe Protection Society :o)

http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/

[jno]

Lynne Truss has done her best to educate the world in this matter, and the success of her punctuation book suggests people are interested. It's just schools that aren't.

In fact, I think that it's may be the problem, because its is the possessive form, whereas it's is short for it is. It isn't illogical, but it is confusing and some people never quite get the hang of it. Apostrophes do have this other use of marking omitted letters.

bednobs, I do the same as your English teacher when in doubt; that's a good rule.

[kettledrum]

if you were a REALLY ARDENT pedant Clanad, you wouldn't tolerate split infinitives....not only to use, but (to) pass on.....!!

[Clanad]

I did say ardent, kettledrum, not fanatic... (if it's good enough for Captain Kirk, who am I to agrue?)Thanks for the comeuppance, though...

[jno]

agrue, Clanad? That's agruesome error...

actually, of course, you're quite right. Though for some weird 18th-century reason pedants say you shouldn't split infinitives, the intro to Star Trek is a perfect example of how it can sound just fine and any other way of putting it comes across as ludicrously clunky (To go boldly... Boldly to go...)

[Clanad]

(Groan) jno ... not bad though for an unintended pun... Everyone needs a straight man from time to time, no?