ring around the rosie

[squeegeteege]

where does ring around the rosie pockets full of posies, ashes to ashes, we all fall down come from.

[gem_mother]

Try http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Fountain/5540/Ringa roundtherosies.html

[splodger]

I always thought that this related to the plague. The 'pocketful of posies' I presume is some herbal protection and the sneeze is a symptom of the plague. 'All fall down' � die. I'm sure someone will post the definitive version later

[natalie_1982]

Spoldger, I remember it being something to do with a disease as well and te plague sounds about right :)

[DixieCRL]

Yes, the Plague, Black Death. I believed the "pocket full of posies," refers to the process of embalming that they used. They put herbs/flowers in the body. It has been awhile since I had that particular history class, so I can't remember the exact details.

[Mr.Ix]

And the ring of roses referred to the "ring" shaped boils or Buboes that appeared ander the arms of the plague victims.

[New Forester]

And the sneezing is supposed to be a plague symptom, and obviously so is "falling down". However, there seems to be some doubt that the Black Death was after all what we now call bubonic plague -- there does not seem to be conclusive proof that it was, and some features are inconsistent. At least, that's what it said in a documentary I saw...

[littleoldme]

Are you outside the UK, squeegeteege? The version I always knew had "a-tishoo, a-tishoo" instead of "ashes to ashes", which would tie in with the sneezing symptom of the plague, so I was wondering if yours is an overseas or regional variant. Come to that, perhaps my version is the regional variant! Either way, it's a nice jolly subject for a children's nursery rhyme, isn't it? :O)

[zgma]

I learned the "ashes, ashes" version and never had any association with sneezes - maybe that's a UK version :)

[WaldoMcFroog]

An old English nursery rhyme. It is commonly thought to refer to the Black Death in the 17th century.

The English version of the rhyme is:

�Ring-a-ring-o-roses,
A pocketful of posies,
Atishoo! Atishoo!
They all fall down!�


The rhyme developed out of the fact that sneezing was the first sign that death by plague was imminent; those who sneezed died! The rhyme is rarely perceived to be as nasty as it really is; it�s about death!

However, Ian Munro's Ring A Ring A Roses FAQ at

http://www.ualberta.ca/~imunro/ring.html

adds a few things. First, the rhyme's not old enough to be about the plague. Second, the early versions are clearly not about the plague.

The earliest printed source for the rhyme dates from 1881. A folklore book published in 1883 claims that versions of the rhyme were circulating in Massachusetts in 1790, but no printed evidence is available.

This earlier date is 125 years after the last major plague of the English-speaking world, and roughly 450 years after the Black Death, the 14th century plague most commonly associated with the poem.

Furthermore, as Ian's variations page demonstrates, most early versions of the rhyme would be extremely difficult to interpret as references to the plague.

[Ouisch]

According to www.snopes.com: Children were apparently reciting this plague-inspired nursery rhyme for over six hundred years before someone finally figured out what they were talking about, as the first known mention of a plague interpretation of "Ring Around the Rosie" didn't show up until James Leasor published The Plague and the Fire in 1961. So, what does "Ring Around the Rosie" mean, then? Folklorist Philip ******* suggests: The more likely explanation is to be found in the religious ban on dancing among many Protestants in the nineteenth century, in Britain as well as here in North America. Adolescents found a way around the dancing ban with what was called in the United States the "play-party." Play-parties consisted of ring games which differed from square dances only in their name and their lack of musical accompaniment. They were hugely popular, and younger children got into the act, too. Some modern nursery games, particularly those which involve rings of children, derive from these play-party games. "Little Sally Saucer" (or "Sally Waters") is one of them, and "Ring Around the Rosie" seems to be another. The rings referred to in the rhymes are literally the rings formed by the playing children. "Ashes, ashes" probably comes from something like "Husha, husha" (another common variant) which refers to stopping the ring and falling silent. And the falling down refers to the jumble of bodies in that ring when they let go of each other and throw themselves into the circle. Like "A Tisket, A Tasket" or "Hey Diddle Diddle" or even "I Am the Walrus," the rhyme we call "Ring Around the Rosie" has no particular meaning, regardless of our latter day efforts to create one for it. They're all simply collections of words and sounds that someone thought sounded good together.

[nirvanafarma]

I think it's a nursery rhyme.

[wendymae]

the pocket full of posies was to cover up the smell........ fact........lol

[Sir_Spikey]

Ian Munro is talks nonsense. However i don't have the refferences to prove it so if you really want to know, best check the net. Basically his claim that there are no earlier references in print is false (if I had the refferences I'd mention the mention in a pastors diary from the time of the plague). The same source even describes why the Pocket fullof poses were used to masque the spell and why the ring of roses seen on victims was the first line. I've been trying to find out why the American version changed atishou to ashes for a long time.

[Mephisto]

We need to remember here, that Grimm's Fairy Tales are mostly far older than the Brothers Grimm. Things like this just did not get written down, but passed on from one generation to the next. By the time they did get written down, the original authors and meanings were long-lost.  No one questions the Bible, with references to the beginnings of Time. How come Adam and Eve didn't write their biographies?  I'd say the same thing applies here. Lots of old childrens stories, rhymes, and poems have references to things of the times, which back then were not censored for political correctness or sensitivity. (Eenie Meenie, Miney Moe is another example) Snopes can be as skeptical as they like, but there's always at least two sides to every story or theory. Form your own conclussions.

[funnybunny52]

Ring around the rosie pockets full of posies ashes to ashes they fall down comes from the medival times when the Bubonic Plague or the Black Death occured killing millions of people. Ring around the rosie stands for the bumbs they got on their skin which resembled rings pockets full of posies stood for the posies that they put in their pockets to cover the stench their body made while they had the black death Ashes to Ashes stands for when the people burned the infecyed peoples belongings so the sickness wouldn't spread. And we all fall down stands for When the person died.