Rule for using 'that' and 'which' ?

[ian.miller]

What is the rule for using that and/or which in a sentence - such as

"The car had a new gearbox that was very smooth"

or

"The car had a new gearbox which was very smooth"

Certain phrases just look right etc but is there an easy way of working it out?

 

 

[ursula62]

In general "which" needs a comma after it whereas "that" doesn't. Apart from this they can be used pretty much interchangeably.

[ursula62]

WHOOPS

sorry

"which" needs a comma before it not after it.

 

[Quizmonster]

In modern everyday usage, 'that' and 'which' are effectively entirely interchangeable, as your two example sentences illustrate.

Regarding the presence or absence of commas before them, there was a sort of 'rule' but very few people now pay it any attention. This depends on whether the 'which/that' clause is restrictive or non-restrictive. Compare...a) This is the pen which my father bought for me...and b) He had an air of vanity, which I daresay was justified.

'That' could easily have replaced 'which' in Sentence 'a' but not so much so in Sentence 'b'. In addition, the 'which' in Sentence 'b' is preceded by a comma.

What is true is that hardly anyone today would criticise you if you replaced the 'which' with 'that' and avoided the comma in both cases!

[ah9815]

Actually you only need a comma before "which" if the clause is nonrestrictive.

In the example you give you don't need a comma before "which" - if the fact the geabox was smooth is important to the meaning of the sentence.

However, if the clause is not vital to meaning, you need commas. E.g.,

The cake, which is made using flour, is tasty.

Read more about this at:

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.html

[SteveD]

Going back to ian.miller's original examples, I always though that "that" tended to be American usage, while "which" tended to be British usage.

 

Am I wrong?

 

[maxi29]

To quote from the Economist style guide (a very good grammatical cribsheet BTW). "Which informs, that defines." In other words, "this is the house that Jack built" but "this house, which Jack built, is now falling down".

[Quizmonster]

The examples you give, Maxi, are basically ones in which the 'which' clause is parenthetical...ie it has commas both before and after it. In other words, you seem not really to be comparing like with like.

In your "This is the house that Jack built" example, my point is that - in modern usage and regardless of what 'The Economist' might have to say about it - you could just as easily say: "This is the house which Jack built."

Regarding the "which informs, that defines" concept, Fowler stated decades ago that that would be a good idea but went on to say: "Some there are who follow this principle now; but it would be idle to pretend that it is the practice either of most or of the best writers."

Hence, if 'most' and 'the best' writers don't bother with the distinction, I cannot imagine why Ian, the questioner here, should either! Personally, I think the best thing that anyone can do with most modern 'style guides' is tear them up and use them to fire their next barbecue! Cheers

[ah9815]

SteveD - although Quizmonster has basically provided a comprehensive and correct answer - I thought I'd just answer your question about usage.

In American usage "that" is normally used in a restrictive clause.

In British English "that" or "which" are interchangeable for restrictive clauses. However, do not confuse restrictive and nonrestrictive clauses. See the link in my email for good source. Cheers!

[ian.miller]

Thanks for the answers one and all - interesting reading.

 

[fiction-factory]

I've reported the above post which (or is it 'that') is spam