Listener 4131 - Carte Blanche en Tore by Ten-Four

[cluelessJoe]

Easiest one of the year for me by a long chalk. Am I getting smarter, or are these Listeners getting simpler?

[ichkeria]

Apologies for the accidental double posting

[ichkeria]

Apologies for the accidental double posting

[ichkeria]

And for not realising that this stupid board doesn't take you to a new page when it creates one (doh!) ...

[bellabee]

i think you know that there is a word/number split with the listener and that there are a fixed number of numericals [ie 4 - they even appear at specified times!]. i gave one other eg of a hybrid, you claim there are lots but don't give any egs. given that we would have to classify the listener as a 'crossword' pretty much defines the core activity involved here. the wrap around nature of the words in this example hardly challenged ones spatial perception [in fact it made perfect sense even in 2D] when i read a post from a non-maths solver who succesfully completed this one telling me no understanding of maths was required i might take you seriously.

[bellabee]

i also think that the unfinished sentence 'having to apply graph theory would have meant.........' suggests you know a lot more about graph theory and it's mathematical application than you wish to profess. the other thing about maths solvers is that they are probably very well 'tooled-up' with computer applications that facilitate working these things out. i've a few coloured pens and a pencil that doubles as a ruler! is it too much to ask to keep trig + geom out of the word puzzles.

[Philoctetes]

Other than knowing what a torus is, there is actually little or no trig and geom in this puzzle. Trial and error is what got me there, and lots of drawing with rulers on extended bits of paper. There was one PDM in particular, after which all teh directions of the lines fell into place. I was most severely hampered by an inability to visualise solid objects.

[bellabee]

if there was 'no trig or geom' in this then i concede the point. if there was 'little' then, for me at least, there was too much. do you do the mathematicals philoctetes? if so maybe it's brain-wiring that's the issue here [+ the lack of a ruler!]. although one or two of the posts favoured a 'spreadsheet' as i recall - whatever that is.

[ichkeria]

bellabee, yes i know that there are 4 slots per year dedicated to number puzzles, and usually these are "pure" number puzzles with no verbal aspect. (Sometimes, however, they do have). Similarly, with the non-number puzzles, there are often puzzles requiring some sort of "mathematical" aspect, though hardly of the sort to send one scurrying to the bomb shelters :-) "Alphanumberics by Zag from years ago is an obvious example, also a puzzle based on Eratosthenes' sieve. And one on the Fibonacci sequence - none of them "number" puzzles.
Lots of people don't like the number puzzles, I happen to, despite having no mathematical background whatever. I do, on the other hand, know mathematicians who detest them. You don't need to be some sort of "maths freak" to solve them.

Why on earth would I profess to know less about graph theory than I do? Believe me I like to show off as much as any one else lol.
I was going to say, before I accidentally posted prematurely, that application of graph theory for the solving of the puzzle might have required working out for oneself, for example, the number of connecting points, which of course one didn't. But that observation is based on common sense, not any "inner" knowledge (!)

[Cruncher]

I'm a bit puzzled by all this. Whilst the final grid is, I assume, a fascinating example of a piece of graph theory, as far as I can tell you don't need to demonstrate any understanding of that bit to submit your grid. So it remains an interesting diversion in an otherwise straight letters puzzle. Yup I do do the numericals but only because they mostly require simple logic rather than advanced maths

[Philoctetes]

Bellabee,
I do the mathematicals, and enjoy them, but onoy graced with a Grade 2 in GCE forty years ago. I do not know if there was any approach to this that would have simplified it (hah!) using trig or geom (hence the "little or" bit - hedging my bets). I solved the 7-point puzzle simply by trying to draw lines that invariably ended up crossing until I had one blinding realisation after which all fell into place. To that extent it was another pictorial puzzle, and I do not believe there is too much maths involved. Any more than in other weeks there is too much chemistry, literature, astronomy, music, or, all too rarely for my expertise, Classics. But I do know that, at the very first hint of the word "Maths", perhaps more than any other subject, some people's minds go blank. To that extent, I might consider that the unnecessary references to "Graph theory" in the preamble were unfair, designed, perhaps, to trigger that reaction.

[Philoctetes]

...and, as an IT user, I can see no benefit from using a "spreadsheet" here! Old fashioned pencil, paper, rubber, bits of string, and, if available, a ruler.

[bellabee]

string!!!!! string theory now - it gets worse!! philoctetes i believe you are right about the maths panic effect.

[bellabee]

thanks ichkeria, thebear,philoctetes - saw the point in the end! could still get this one in the post [with a clear conscience]. hope other numerophobes are still following the thread.

[Philoctetes]

Go for it , BB! What's the betting you get drawn out of the winner's hat? And one thing this thread should remind people of is that there are 11 days to complete each puzzle. Just because you haven't finished by noon on Saturday doesn't mean you never will!

[bellabee]

it's ready for posting - and thanks again philoctetes [your last postings really made me think logically about the problem and the pdm came in a flash ]

[teuchter2]

Having been away from the BRB for 8 days I have finished the grid this morning, but not enough time before post goes to sort out the denouement, so I will just remain satisfied with completing the grid and will check out the other part when the time comes!

[Mysterons]

Certainly a healthy thread this week - the last one to come anywhere close was Sine Qua Non by Shackleton just 52 weeks ago (129), though I suppose we have had a few multiple postings here.

I have just a couple of 'seven' related observations on this one:

Regarding 24 across, the extra letter is obviouly intended to be S, but is 'causes to be' actually the same as 'comes to be' ('becomes') ? I thought at first that an extra G fitted the wordplay more accurately.

I can only see five occurences of the letter given by 10 down in the grid - should there not be seven in that case ?

[bellabee]

mysterons - 24 brb further down the list [scots] to become, befit. there are 7 occurences.

[Mysterons]

Thanks bellabee - I had missed that one.

I had also assumed that "massage" = REICH in 10d - have I gone wrong here ?

[bellabee]

yes mysterons - it's the new-age massage [5 letters] minus the central i [and of course leaving the other letter that you know surplus.