Listener 4137: Frightened Catherine by Ifor

[midazolam]

An enjoyable Listener début from Ifor (although a setter that I have solved in the Magpie, EV and IQ).

I was wondering why this needed to be a carte blanche as I was solving it, but the little twists justified it. Clever theme that was well constructed. Thanks Ifor

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[Clamzy]

TB69 I think it will be technically preferable to have your common word in second place.

Yet another superb debut - many thanks Ifor. If I get the time this week I'll pop over to the other place for a crack at his other puzzle.

[tilbee]

Thanks TB69, just when you think you have finsihed you suddenly realise you have missed the final step, i.e. entering the two clue numbers (now done),

It is difficult to say a lot more without giving too much away, but I would suggest you work back from 5 and 17 to workout what is the convergence. Not sure what are the two (5,5) phrases you have, but this should settle that. Maybe you are going down a blind alley ?

PP - what no special theme for you this week ?

[TheBear69]

tilbee, there are two different phrases that share the important word, both (5,5) that both are synonyms for the convergence. One is more 'mathematical' than the other (and I agree it's the more likely of the two to be the intended answser) but the other - where the important word comes first is a very common expression for the same phenomenon.

[midazolam]

TheBear69 - I know what your 2 phrases are, but one of those is incorrect. Once you have worked out all parts of this crossword in relation to the preamble, one of those will not make sense.

[dr b]

Bear, assuming we're all thinking what you're thinking, although the phrasing where "the important word comes first is a very common expression for the same phenomenon", it would be very difficult to interpret this as an instruction regarding which clue to ignore; whereas the other way it seems very clear which clue to ignore.

If you're not thinking what we're all thinking, then ignore the above.

[dr b]

ooh, snap.

[pushmi-pullyu]

tilbee - I can't expect special treatment all the time!

[tilbee]

TB69 - Ah I think I understand. I can only think of one version, used in connection to both 5 and 17 (mathematical part first), which then leads to determination of any ambiguities. The other phrase would not be applicable to both at the same time.

Fear I may have said to much.

[tilbee]

Sorry ignore that - it would of course be applicable to both. Dr B comment is much more useful.

[teuchter2]

Got finished this evening. I really love the challenge of the carte blanche, but have been out a lot this weekend, so have had to take it up and put it down again. Despite living in teuchterland I have never heard of either of the words for 16a though they are in my Scots School Dictionary, but not with the alcoholic meaning! I'm not sure what the other phrase is that people are stressing over, but I'm fairly well convinced that mine fits the bill. I too think there could be a letter missing from the title.

[7lattens]

Teutcher 2: Re the "missing letter" - try linking the title with the spare clue - does anybody have a good on-line link to Scottish dictionaries as this is my usual downfall

[tilbee]

Teucher2 - whenever I think there is a problem in the setting, it is just that I have not understood al the subtleties. The combination of title and extranaeous clue should clarify this,

[TheBear69]

I agree that the 'more mathematical' one supplies "an instruction regarding which clue to ignore" (and that is what I have had written in from the very beginning), nothing in the preamble says that the (5,5) phrase is to be an instruction. It says that the (5,5) should "resolve the ambiguity". In the contents of the grid, the alternative phrase is apt given where on is to write the convergence.

If someone correctly filled in the grid, including the pair of numbers, and wrote the alternative phrase below, I think it would be unfair to mark them wrong.

As to why it needed to be a carte blanche, there would not have been much mystery as to which clue to consider ignoring if the bars were presented. You would know immediately whether it was an across or down clue, for example, and a few cold solves would give enough info about word lengths to narrow the search.

[silversolver]

Please add my name to the list of those who thought this puzzle was a cracker - an excellent construction, plenty of challenges and pitfalls along the way, and a lovely series of PDMs at the end. Thanks, Ifor.

[Eril]

Bellabee - just flicking through some recent Listener threads, and I see that you should never have started this particular crossword! Odd how you predicted this. I presume your 'boffins' comment was a studiedly veiled reference to your statement of your position in that thread.

TheBear et al
Re the decision between the two 5,5s. Surely one of them is exact and the other is heading in the wrong direction?

[bellabee]

you are right eril,but at least i had a head start on this one [thankfully it didn't involve fractions this time]. then i had to practice some [basic] arithmetic to finish the inquisitor. when will we arts graduates get a little gem or two? something like the kafka/escher castle would be perfect - even the cherry tree had nice visuals [couldn't say the same thing about the pollock which completely subverted the expressiveness of the technique for me].more often than not these days there seems to be a disquieting whiff of the lab coming from the times. enough! enough!! give us a break!

[Mysterons]

7lattens, this site rarely disappoints:

http://www.scots-online.org/dictionary/

The extra clue/title/numbering all sheer genius - no doubt about the precise wording required for the convergence.

More joy at http://www.crossword.org.uk/poetry.html

[abns]

I also thought this was a great puzzle, but I'm slightly bothered by two things - the missing "A" in the title and the use of "somewhat outdated" to describe the correspondence. Have I missed something fundamental?

Also i think it's correct to say that if you think (like I did) that you know which clue to ignore without having worked out the (5,5), then you have another think coming.

[Mysterons]

Consider the relationship between the extra clue and the title abns

[abns]

Ahh I understand the title now. Just dont understand the outdatedness...