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Listener 4151: Number or Nummer by Ruslan
58 Answers
Tricky start to this numerical with a preamble that initially confused me as I misunderstood what was going to be English and German.
I now have all the letters, a completed left hand grid and the two words, but yet to determine the right hand grid.
Will sleep on it
I now have all the letters, a completed left hand grid and the two words, but yet to determine the right hand grid.
Will sleep on it
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Uggh. I see that they've finally corrected the puzzle at CrosswordClub. I had to figure out on my own that 2Z meant multiplication while Z2 meant exponentiation.
It's unfortunate that 10! possibilities used to be too many for a computer to handle, but now it's a reasonably tractable number. This puzzle is too easy to solve by brute force.
It's unfortunate that 10! possibilities used to be too many for a computer to handle, but now it's a reasonably tractable number. This puzzle is too easy to solve by brute force.
Did the initial number crunching/elimination three times. First time managed to miss out the required solution amongst the thickets of non-solutions, the next time did find it, and thenthe last time did it all again to find the second solution (without the T). It was a strategy to save time... Anyone do it more elegantly? Or just crunched once?
Endless, endless problems this week, mostly minor but escalating on the irritation scale. Getting onto the Crossword club site, eventually switching browsers and going via my Times membership, which has a different log-in. That misbegotten layout printed once without grid, and finally giving up on expecting the preamble to be word-wrapped and printing it separately. I was going to give it a go, but ran quite out of enthusiasm. That preamble is pretty nonsensical, isn't it? Does "Solvers must identify the English transcriptions of the answers entered using German in one of the grids" actually mean anything in either language?
For what it's worth, I assumed one grid would be in "German", the other in "English", which seemed fairly trivial since German numerals don't have an initial T anywhere, but I'm afraid I'm way past caring. We meet again next week, hopefully on more sensible grounds.
For what it's worth, I assumed one grid would be in "German", the other in "English", which seemed fairly trivial since German numerals don't have an initial T anywhere, but I'm afraid I'm way past caring. We meet again next week, hopefully on more sensible grounds.
Should be B*D*D - that's worked for me so far.
If anyone could point me to the part of the preamble which actually explains what to do with the second grid I would be most obliged. 'Rregrettably, this means there are now two possible solutions' isn't enough for me!
I've tried 1) translating the left grid into German and 2) number-crunching through 1d to see if there is an alternative set of numbers which give the same answer found in the left grid. Neither have worked.
If anyone could point me to the part of the preamble which actually explains what to do with the second grid I would be most obliged. 'Rregrettably, this means there are now two possible solutions' isn't enough for me!
I've tried 1) translating the left grid into German and 2) number-crunching through 1d to see if there is an alternative set of numbers which give the same answer found in the left grid. Neither have worked.
Zabadak, that is exactly the mistake made. The preamble is very confusing. However the left hand grid has a mixture of German and English entries. I presume this is the case for the right hand grid.
I also tried those methods bassoonery, but I think that the clues have different numbers in order to solve the right hand grid. In other words two puzzles need to be solved. I am yet to crack it yet. I am afraid this numerical seems too much like trial and error to be enjoyable.
Those like fyellin who can create a computer program and find it easy are at a minority, it is far from easy
I also tried those methods bassoonery, but I think that the clues have different numbers in order to solve the right hand grid. In other words two puzzles need to be solved. I am yet to crack it yet. I am afraid this numerical seems too much like trial and error to be enjoyable.
Those like fyellin who can create a computer program and find it easy are at a minority, it is far from easy
Like anyone else brave (foolhardy) enough to attempt this puzzle, I am finding that there is very little logic to be deduced - just "crunching" (=trial and error), which (I am afraid to say) seems rather pointless. I have started in bottom right hand corner (well, it seemed a more obvious place than 16A) but am yet to find any combinations working (and here there seem like there are only relatively few possibilities). Going to be a very long slog (or maybe just back to the cricket and forget all about it).
Midazolam and Trux - I have to agree, it's more trial and error than logic, which is just tedious. I've just got so close to a solution for the right side, but again it doesn't work (Bottom left corner messed things up)... will keep trying. Maybe.
The left-hand grid however was good fun. I wish they had left it at that.
The left-hand grid however was good fun. I wish they had left it at that.
bassoonery: - the instructions for the second grid (the one without the given T) is implied by "the corresponding cell in the other grid will be occupied by a different letter". You have two solutions which can be differentiated by the last digit of 8d; the one where 8d ends in T goes left, etc. I realize it does not say this explicitly, but it's a reasonable inference.
Cruncher - Look at 12d; that makes it clear that when a expression is to be squared it will be enclosed in parentheses. so (BXDXBXD) would have been clued as (BD)^2.
I'm sure this would get the prize for the most poorly worded set of instructions yet.
The instructions are flawed because you cannot really deduce all of the answers our dummkopf solver transcribed into German. You can deduce answer that MUST have been entered that way, but there are answers for which you cannot know which language was used. (Suppose an answer were 777777 - that becomes SSSSSS either way and you cannot tell if this was an English or German entry). I realize this is a nit; but such poorly written instructions are begging to be faulted.
There is a logical path which is somewhat less computationally expensive than brute force; e.g. 24a and 15d constrain B and D somewhat. If you continue in that fashion you quickly(?) get a set of 5 or 6 letters that are constrained to one solution or the other...but it was still a slog.
I think this is a more coherent set of instructions:
The letters in the clues stand for the first ten primes (2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23 and 29) and lead to numbers that are all different, none beginning with a zero. The notation A^2 is used to mean A squared, and A^3 for A cubed.
The intent was that each digit was to be entered in the grid as the first letter of its lexical form (1 = One, 2 = Two, 3 = Three, 4 = Four, 5 = Five, 6 = Six, 7 = Seven, 8 = Eight, 9 = Nine, 0 = Zero) so, for example, 3456 would be entered as TFFS. HOWEVER, this puzzle was adapted from a version in a German newspaper* by an enthusiastic local solver who inadvertently transcribed some clue answers using their German format (1 = Eins, 2 = Zwei, 3 = Drei, 4 = Vier, 5 = Fünf, 6 = Sechs, 7 = Sieben, 8 = Acht, 9 = Neun, 0 = Null), which would make 3456 DVFS. Regrettably, this resulted in two valid solutions. Solvers should enter both of these in the pair of provided grids; the given letter will determine which solution goes in which grid. Solvers should identify those answers in each grid that were entered in German and consider their English counterparts in clue order. For one of the grids, this will result in two words of equal length that are to be entered below the grids, one on each side of the colon; this will relate to a claim made above.
Cruncher - Look at 12d; that makes it clear that when a expression is to be squared it will be enclosed in parentheses. so (BXDXBXD) would have been clued as (BD)^2.
I'm sure this would get the prize for the most poorly worded set of instructions yet.
The instructions are flawed because you cannot really deduce all of the answers our dummkopf solver transcribed into German. You can deduce answer that MUST have been entered that way, but there are answers for which you cannot know which language was used. (Suppose an answer were 777777 - that becomes SSSSSS either way and you cannot tell if this was an English or German entry). I realize this is a nit; but such poorly written instructions are begging to be faulted.
There is a logical path which is somewhat less computationally expensive than brute force; e.g. 24a and 15d constrain B and D somewhat. If you continue in that fashion you quickly(?) get a set of 5 or 6 letters that are constrained to one solution or the other...but it was still a slog.
I think this is a more coherent set of instructions:
The letters in the clues stand for the first ten primes (2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23 and 29) and lead to numbers that are all different, none beginning with a zero. The notation A^2 is used to mean A squared, and A^3 for A cubed.
The intent was that each digit was to be entered in the grid as the first letter of its lexical form (1 = One, 2 = Two, 3 = Three, 4 = Four, 5 = Five, 6 = Six, 7 = Seven, 8 = Eight, 9 = Nine, 0 = Zero) so, for example, 3456 would be entered as TFFS. HOWEVER, this puzzle was adapted from a version in a German newspaper* by an enthusiastic local solver who inadvertently transcribed some clue answers using their German format (1 = Eins, 2 = Zwei, 3 = Drei, 4 = Vier, 5 = Fünf, 6 = Sechs, 7 = Sieben, 8 = Acht, 9 = Neun, 0 = Null), which would make 3456 DVFS. Regrettably, this resulted in two valid solutions. Solvers should enter both of these in the pair of provided grids; the given letter will determine which solution goes in which grid. Solvers should identify those answers in each grid that were entered in German and consider their English counterparts in clue order. For one of the grids, this will result in two words of equal length that are to be entered below the grids, one on each side of the colon; this will relate to a claim made above.
Hello from San Francisco. I am wondering if someone who has a completed left side of the grid could confirm for me that 13 Across works for them. I have a solution for the left side that produces an entirely appropriate pair of words to put below the grids and for which all the math works out except for 13 Across. I'm not looking for any hints, just a confirmation that the clue is indeed correct as printed. (Including that the order of operations is OK and that there are no parentheses missing or misplaced -- the division sign applying only to A(S+T)/Z.) Many thanks!
Yes. 13A works; there are no errors in any of the clues. Order of operations is as normal (multiplication/division have precedence over addition/subtraction; e.g. AB+C means (A*B)+C.); squaring and cubing apply to the letter only unless parens are used. Ruslan used parentheses where they were needed; so A*(S+T)/Z is one complete term in the expression.
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