Listener 4159 - Crovvword by Pointer

[starwalker]

Some lovely clues have brought me to the point where I just have to find the third item to illustrate, and I feel a need to rest. Thanks (in advance) Pointer. You have enlightened me and revived long-lost lessons.

[danielmason]

I still think the message gives two possible places to start (as someone said above). And does 'continuous curve' mean it joins up or does it have two end points? Am I right in thinking that 'spell out' means the letters come in word order? And the picture I have in mind to draw would have a straight segment so the message puzzles me. And should I think of starting big or small (as someone else said above)? In other words, I am still struggling and would welcome some hints!

[PDW1964]

Coalminers. Thank you for your kind offer. E mail address is [email protected] I am keen to start on The Listeners but am struggling to get a grip on this one. However , many seem to suggest that the secondary part of this puzzle is comparatively difficult which gives me hope!

[Mysterons]

Daniel, there are two ends, there is no straight segment and you are correct about the letter order. The best hint I can give regarding the choice of starting point is that virtually none of the grid is wasted, so the side you need to chose is determined by the placement of the "structure".

[easterfool]

Thanks Mysterons for at least stopping me from chasing sixes. The message suggests a long word, but I can't find anything yet. I assume that the message implies that each segment is at least 3 letters. Does it end up in the right position relative to the 3rd themeword or am I really completely on teh wrong track?

[Coalminers]

PDW1964 - message sent. I hope you find it helpful. It is worth persevering.

[Cruncher]

Hi easterfool - the preamble tells you that each segment begins and ends in the centre of a cell and that it is these cells that form the word. If you know how many segments there are then you can figure out how many cells are involved in the word. If you want a more explicit nudge you are welcome to email me rather than making this thread too explicit - [email protected]

[Coalminers]

With respect, Cruncher, that is not what the preamble says. It merely says that each segment "finishes at the centre of a cell". A possible pitfall to the unwary.

[Mysterons]

With the exception of the first (smallest) segment, Cruncher's statement is of course correct - the message explicitly states where this exception starts, and the choice of 2 possible points is determined by the offset nature of the lowest vertical "structure" in the grid. The number of letters isn't that large easterfool and equals the number of QAs in the message, therefore each segment contributes one letter.

[Cruncher]

Mysterons - disagree about your "smallest segment". Think you'll find that the maths doesn't work if you include that bit

[easterfool]

After the various pushes and a much more careful reading of the preamble, I finally arrived. Thanks to those who got me round the right course. I certainly lived up (or down) to my penname (or whatever it is called) - what a fool I was not to read the preamble with enough care. I wanted to use too many cells there and not those in my own brain! Old age and rusty brain syndrome, I expect. Will anyone else be in London for the Crossword Championship this coming weekend?

[Mysterons]

If by "smallest segment" you are referring to the one contained entirely within the cell occupied by the first letter, then I'm certain the maths does work Cruncher.

[Coalminers]

I think this is an interesting discussion going on here, as I think there might be a lot of incorrect submissions as a result of it. I know that I was very happy with my inital solution until I realised that it didn't stand up to mathematical scrutiny. Working backwards along the curve, it would seem that the next number in the sequence n, n-1, n-2,....,3,2,1 is 1/2 in this instance. Not what one might normally have expected. Do others agree?

[Mysterons]

I've not scrutinised the curve mathematically Coalminers, but I have the same sequence as you, with arc diameters reducing from 7 (small square sides) to 1, then the smallest 1/2 - is that architecturally incorrect ?

[Coalminers]

I don't know about architectuurally correct, but it's certainly not mathematically intuitive.

[Coalminers]

But I think enough has been said here. The Answerbank Police will soon be onto us.

[Mysterons]

If 1/2 is not mathematically correct, should there have been one less QA for a purer curve perhaps ?

[Ruthrobin]

Yes, I am not normally the answerbank police but do think we have to respect the rules, even at this late stage of a discussion. I never saw turnerjmw's message that was removed but I imagine he also reminded us all that we have a convention. A very wide audience reads these discussions and it is not fair on the ones who are in the competition to be giving too much away. Several of us have offered to help privately and willingly do so to newcomers and strugglers/stragglers, as there is a second group of people just eager to get to the end of a puzzle and not give up - we can understand that. I had lots of help off-line at first and will willingly help privately. andrew-g-s has made the same offer on this thread. Contact one of us, rather than asking for detailed responses here, please. [email protected]

[easterfool]

There is no late stage of a discussion until after the closing date or printing of the solution. As one who often starts and or finishes late, even though I am grateful for the recent help in making me look more carefully, I would not like to see too much within the proper period of the crossword. I hope that I haven't transgressed or caused others to - forgive me if you think that I have. But I do enjoy the banter! - especially if I have already solved everything.

[Cruncher]

Hi Mysterons - I stand shamed and corrected! I think you are absolutely right

[logophile]

Strictly speaking the maths only works for the first two segments Cruncher, as the ratio between the diameters of consecutive segments should be 7:6 throughout. Because this curve is superimposed on the regular cells of a crossword grid, each successive diameter after 6 is smaller than it should be, thereby progressively 'tightening' the coil. In the circumstances the illustration is a pretty good approximation of what it represents.