Listener 4162 Carte Blanche with a Twist by Mash

[starwalker]

Judging from the dearth of postings, others are also finding this less than a walkover - pretty much as foretold.
I'm still working on paragraph one of the preamble and an odd assortment of answers. Friday Night Club maybe, but probably next Friday.

[JackDeCrow]

Oops - apologies for that rogue apostrophe!! And a well-deserved century for 4162!

[Mesnilpat]

Thanks Mysterons and Jack - I shall take another look this evening and hope that the penny finally drops in the light of your posts.

[fyellin]

Mesnilpat: I believe there is a slight flaw in this puzzle. There are multiple solutions to the 10x30, all identical except for rotation, and all having the numbers going consecutively. All 3 solutions can be used to fill the 10x15, but only one fills it in a way that's really clean.

The instructions give no indication of the setter being aware of the multiple solutions.

[Cruncher]

Literally 'out of this world' this one. A magnificent feat of engineering. Have the clash and the ideal form but no idea about the hidden message nor any idea of where to look for it. Presume it's in the grid somewhere but maybe that's presuming too much

[Mysterons]

I can see 4 rotational variants fyellin, but as you say only one of these fits all the criteria in the preamble. Cruncher, I assumed the message would be hidden along with Mr. Sumner's, but admittedly haven't tried too hard to find it.

[perseverer]

If you found the hidden message before you found the 11 letters then I'm sure you would have Googled it, so I don't think it is giving anything away to say that Googling it does lead to the 11 letters. If you have the submission grid complete then the hidden message will just reinforce what you already know. The message is hidden in a conventional way, but to me, slightly sneakily.

[BlackHugh]

Well - I still haven't managed to manufacture a clash or got the "ideal form" to go in more than one direction. I'm hoping there'll be enough time to come back to after today's one - published in just 8 minutes :-)

[fyellin]

BlackHugh: Do you understand the ideal form (as much as any non-expoert can)? Do you understand the connection between the ideal form and the construction of the 10x15 grid? Make sure you *really* understand the connection.

[iamamoose]

BlackHugh - if still stuck, check the generous hint from Mysterons, Thu 9.21

[TheBear69]

Sigh, I have built a 20X30 supergrid so that what I'm looking for has to be there without any discontinuities but I still am blind to the clash. The hint about letter frequencies did not turn on any light bulbs for me, either. I definitely understand what the ideal form is which leads be to strongly suspect how the clash SHOULD occur - although if it were truly ideal there would be no clash.

[iamamoose]

TheBear - look for an unusual, but revealing, choice of words in the 2nd paragraph of the preamble

[contendo]

Having slogged away at this for a week I think I've taken it as far as I can go. By choosing one of Mysterons's 4 options I have got a clash which can be made to look like the digit representing the column in which it lies. However I cannot see the 11 letter ideal form. There is a nice word which describes the format of this puzzle but it's more than 11 letters and I can't see it anywhere, nor can I see the hidden message.
This is a fiendishly clever and difficult crossword but to me there are too many ambiguities for it to make the top grade. Maybe that's just sour grapes.

[BlackHugh]

fyellin, imamoose - back here after doing sufficient on 4163,, thanks for the advice. I must admit to have not looked into the ideal form for some decades so I'll start with some revision.

[tilbee]

IainGrace - think you are on the right track with 1a / 1d. When I first started I made a wrong assumption as to where 2d began. Remember down clues may start before the first letter of an across clue of a higher number that they intersect due to their wrapping around.

Contendo - I did not see any ambiguities in the final solution once I discovered it, but this may just be my not being as thorough as some other solvers in looking at other possibilites. The 'obvious' solution worked for me and met all the contraints of the preamble.

[Lewap]

Grid filled, clash found - can picture the ideal form, but no idea what it might be called. Please someone tell me where to find the hidden message and the eleven letters - I give up! - [email protected]
Thanks!!!

[IainGrace]

Thanks again, Tilbee. Grid One completed at least.

[Arcticpenguin]

Well, finally got there I think. Slight deviation at start when I tried using a 30 by 10 grid instead of the other way round.Needed some big-time assistance from my brother with his Mathematics degree once initial grid was all sorted out (he knew all about the highlighted item). Can't see there being too many correct solutions this week !!! One a scale of 1 to 10 I would give this a 12.

[Philoctetes]

Yes, there are still some working away at this, aware that the sands of time are nearly up. Surrounded by printouts and scrawls, full of ideas of possibilities, but without a clue as to what the "ideal form" might be called. I can summon up anything from zero to fifteen "clashes" I can guess what type of clash I am looking for, but no words leap from the page at me, apart from the mocking 8a and 10a. I feel I am in one of the more sinuous reaches of 1a.i

[Scree]

Perhaps I should have started this sooner...

After a relaxing weekend at my mum's I have an initial grid. Infuriatingly, I can't solve 13A, though I have all possible intersecting letters and there's only one place it can go.

But in any case, I don't see how the 11-letter form that I suspected from the start (which definitely has a twist) could produce a final grid with all cells filled and just one clash. The wording of the second paragraph of the preamble suggests something along the lines of this form, but there may well be lots of other twisted forms which are more useful.

So I'll probably admit defeat on this one, though I feel a certain satisfaction at solving all but one of the clues!

[Scree]

OK...now that I've printed off my initial grid, I've spotted where 13A actually goes and solved it easily enough. There's always a chance I'll see the next step tonight, but I won't hold my breath.