Listener 4194, Two Little Ducks by Ben Trovato

[Zabadak]

Now that really WAS easy, though I had to work fast as I'm off out to watch England/Sweden in the company of some Spurs.
Once the first of the unclued answers drops, the rest follow without too much ado and provide lots of help for the clued ones.. Fortunately I've got lots to do this weekend.
Thanks, though, Ben - I enjoyed that much more than last weeks.

[the_heisman]

Nice fairly easy puzzle. But do others agree that the average level of difficulty is easier this year so far? I don't want to tempt fate but I think I have completed all so far this year and normally that is very much not the case.

[olichant]

While (unsurprisingly!) I did not find this nearly as easy as others, I feel very pleased with myself for having finally got it. It became much easier after the (really quite late) PDM, although I was held up for a while because the spelling I have always used for one of the members (halfway down on the left) was not the one used in the challenge.

I'd be grateful for any views on the following two questions given that I'm still very new to all of this:

1. What is the Z cup? (I'm sure it's obvious, and apologise in advance!)

2. On a more serious note, is it acceptable to use online aids to solve these puzzles? Specifically, I have sometimes had to use an online tool to suggest answers based on known letters when I haven't been able to crack answers "cold", working out the wordplay afterwards. Is this considered improper? I should add that I'm more than happy not to hand in my homework if this sort of thing is considered below the pale - but it is an invaluable resource for the learner.

Either way, I really enjoyed it.

[dr b]

1) the Z(abadak) Cup is awarded to the person who had the grumpiest reaction to the week's puzzle.

2) Speaking only for myself: given the number of Scots words, Spenserian spellings, and words that no human has ever used in a sentence that appear in these puzzles, I could never complete one without resorting to online dictionaries, Word Wizard, etc. Just as I would never bring a knife to a gunfight, I would not consider starting a Listener without the full arsenal of aids at my disposal. Others may disagree. I do not submit the puzzle, for what that's worth.

[Philoctetes]

Nothing in the rules to stop you using anything. I usually have three broad bands of attempts: first, see how much I can do without any aid whatsoever; when I have exhausted that after a couple of goes trying, I pick up the books (BRB, Bradford, etc); then I fire up the electrons. I often wonder about members of the "Friday Club", whether they simply know all the words, or go straight to the electronic aids.

[BlackHugh]

As Philoctetes says there are no set rules. I, for one, would not be able to do the Listener without recourse to the aids already mentioned and I don't feel that using them in any way prevents me from submitting my entries.
On the other hand my late grandmother decreed that the use of any dictionary was cheating, although the crossword she regularly did was the Daily Telegraph Cryptic. She never submitted anything, believing that the only people who could win were friends of the organisers!

[Alekhine]

With regard to using aids, electronic or otherwise, I think one principle applies...

... solvers should be allowed to use whatever the setter has used.

What do others think?

[Ruthrobin]

Well, I am a setter and a solver and have even been in the all corrects list twice and am sometimes in the Friday club. Over the years, the Listener crossword has seemed easier but I think the level actually stays fairly constant and we just become more used to the devices and to the less familiar words. I have a self-imposed rule not to come to the Answerbank until I have completed the grid and had the pdm, but use every dictionary available, Bradford (especially) Quinapalus and the Internet. I do have very clever friends who know lots of those very obscure words but there are half a dozen unfamiliar ones for me every week and I happilly submit having used every available device, without the slightest qualm or feeling that I am cheating. I am astonished by people who can solve with just pencil and paper.

[Ruthrobin]

I did mean happily!

[word_cross]

I always find it rather more satisfying to solve a clue without resorting to electronic aids - so this is always my preferred approach, only falling back on the computer when I'm truly stuck. Using the BRB (paper copy) to look up / verify meanings of answers, however, is half of the fun of doing these puzzles - because invariably I stumble across a new word that I'd never noticed before.

[olichant]

Many thanks, all, for taking the time to reply - it is appreciated.

[dr b]

Of course, it is more satisfying to solve clues just by looking at them, and I am sure that most solvers go through the clues once or twice looking for just such clues. It's always fun to recognize an anagram for "perspicacious" or "absquatulate" without going to Word Wizard. Personally, I'm not good enough at these to get more than a quarter of the clues in a typical puzzle before I roll out the heavy artillery.

[Voulez-vous]

Managed to finish this one, only my third Listener finish ever (all this year, but never tried before then).
I always do what I can without books or internet, then hit the books, then the internet.
I'm very happy to have finished and know it must of been on the easy side for me to have done so!
Thoroughly enjoyed the puzzle, so thanks, "Ben Trovato".
My hat is off to all you folks that regularly complete this puzzle...........I'm just grateful for the occasional crumb that allows me to join the club (although not the Friday Club! That is never likely to happen!)

[cruciverbali]

Alekhine, your suggestion has merit but would require the preamble to indicate those details for each puzzle. It's certainly satisfying to complete Azed or Mephisto for instance with no reference to the dictionary, or the Listener without electronic assistance - on the other hand the more challenging puzzles can be equally satisfying to complete with assistance. For those of us relatively short of time for our cruciverbal passion, electronic aids can also be a great help of course, especially when it comes to reseaching information and quotations for thematics. I believe it's all about personal improvement - if you asked JEG whether the Listener is 'easier' now than it was 20 years ago I suspect he would say generally not, though I often share the heisman's impression that this is the case. I used to associate tougher puzzles with certain well-established setters, but these seem to appear less frequently these days - an issue of supply or editorial demand ?

[Philoctetes]

I agree with Cruciverbali in response to Alekhine. There is the added element that, with that restriction, some puzzles would be completely insoluble to some. For instance, I could construct a puzzle consisting entirely of terms found in archery which to me would be clear and obvious, but to others impossible without reference; on the other hand, as I have Zabadacked often, O-level science gives me a headache, curable only via the web. Which prompts the question whether the rise of the internet has brought a corresponding rise in specialist puzzles.

[easterfool]

Enjoyed this after I had got over a couple of wrong answers - 1 down, 1 across. Having sorted out the theme, I found the extras in the clues very easily - I thought it was well pointed. Thanks BT - enjoyed the crossword and thanks everyone else - I enjoyed the thread

[Alekhine]

cruciverbali ... not sure we'd need to go to those lengths for each puzzle.

How about a basic assumption that the setter has used Chambers (perhaps an electronic version) and Bradford? I suspect that would cover many (or most) eventualities.