Sunday Express Skeleton Sunday November...
Crosswords2 mins ago
Listener 4196 Here and There by Hedge-Sparrow
63 Answers
Sorry for all those that replied to the last thread, but here is another
The crux of this one is not to get flustered with all those letters as I did, but it does work out in the end
midazolamcrosswords (at) gmail (dot) com
The crux of this one is not to get flustered with all those letters as I did, but it does work out in the end
midazolamcrosswords (at) gmail (dot) com
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Zabadak:
As you know, amending letters can be applied in one of two ways. Try constructing a matrix of each of the amending letters, the number of times it’s used one way and the number of times it’s used the other way. My matrix has an interesting outcome and it was this which finally convinced me that my grid entries were probably correct and that I should examine the rubric for a more devious way to resolve the final ambiguities.
As you say though, it’s possible that my final solution will satisfy only me. With Listeners, when I’m not sure if I’ve solved it correctly it normally transpires that I haven’t. I half hope that I’ve made a complete rocks of 4196, just to restore my faith in future puzzles.
As you know, amending letters can be applied in one of two ways. Try constructing a matrix of each of the amending letters, the number of times it’s used one way and the number of times it’s used the other way. My matrix has an interesting outcome and it was this which finally convinced me that my grid entries were probably correct and that I should examine the rubric for a more devious way to resolve the final ambiguities.
As you say though, it’s possible that my final solution will satisfy only me. With Listeners, when I’m not sure if I’ve solved it correctly it normally transpires that I haven’t. I half hope that I’ve made a complete rocks of 4196, just to restore my faith in future puzzles.
Phew, what a busy weekend - two games of cricket to watch with my son in, tennis, ODI etc etc - all good results though! Left little time for the weekly Listener fix. Thought the grid fill was pretty straightforward apart from two or three which stumped me for a while. Then quite a bit of headscratching on the endgame where I am firmly in the camp of this being a misleading preamble. But I don't think there is any ambiguity in the final grid. Liked "Game, set and match!" the relevance given Wimbledon is on at the moment was apt. I did have a thought that we could have a clue of the week vote on AB, anyone interested this week (or perhaps next), just list your favourite clue and we can tot up entries. Might even keep note of winners and roll it up into a clue of the year, if of course anyone else displays any interest....
I have 3 remaining clues with possible ambiguities about entries so can't yet identify the "one key clue" with the DLM (although I have a hunch). Do each of the letters involved in amendments to the 45 clues occur once each in this key clue ie the DLM consists of 45 letters (plus the additional one) and there are no other extraneous letters in the clue?
I also felt the preamble was overly ambiguous and spent a very long time trying to fathom out what was going on. When, however, it clicked, it was a very pleasant PDM and I now appreciate the clever construction and the vagueness of the preamble. It would be a shame to give that PDM away on this thread.
I'm thinking of joining the AB Police Cadet Force!
I'm thinking of joining the AB Police Cadet Force!
nigel2:
That's far too direct a question and I've no wish to incur the wrath of The Listener Police, or its AB cadets, by answering it.
Except of course I already have in an earlier post. Solve all the clues bar one. What remains must be the special clue. Solve the two definitions. What remains must be the letter mix. Then you'll be able to answer your own question.
That's far too direct a question and I've no wish to incur the wrath of The Listener Police, or its AB cadets, by answering it.
Except of course I already have in an earlier post. Solve all the clues bar one. What remains must be the special clue. Solve the two definitions. What remains must be the letter mix. Then you'll be able to answer your own question.
Changing the subject...just for fun I've tried downloading a free version of Crossword Maestro, having seen it on the link RuthRobin gave. I've put in some of the clues (having finished the crossword already) to see how much help it could be. Has anyone else tried it, or puchased it. If so, what do you think. And to what extent is this cheating?
Firstly (in response to Z and others) if you are in doubts because of the letters from down and across clues, try listing the letters in the different gimmicks instead..you will get a much better outcome even though it is the same (cleared it up for me)
Secondly (in response to AGS) 1D and 32A were the most elusive, but I am rubbish at picking the best clue. There were several with excellent surface reading
Lastly (in response to CM) cheating is a topic of contention with many. It varies from using a thesaurus to electronic aids and finally at clue solvers (the latter I have no knowledge of). Electronic aids can be split up into anagram solvers, missing letters solvers and direct synonym solvers (also an array of clever stuff on the quinapalus wordmatcher and qat). I dont think any of the above is cheating, one still has to work the clue out in all its parts, however there are those who would say that is cheating yourself. There is also the endgame, is wikipedia cheating? Not for me, it is no different than doing it the old fashion way and going to the library - just much quicker. We are just progressing with the times and I must say that setters are moving with it too. There are several solving teams (often married couples / partners) who enjoy tackling these fun puzzles together, seems fine, but what about "phoning" a friend for an answer....now that is contentious. I am pleased to say that AB is adhering to it's unwritten rule these days
Secondly (in response to AGS) 1D and 32A were the most elusive, but I am rubbish at picking the best clue. There were several with excellent surface reading
Lastly (in response to CM) cheating is a topic of contention with many. It varies from using a thesaurus to electronic aids and finally at clue solvers (the latter I have no knowledge of). Electronic aids can be split up into anagram solvers, missing letters solvers and direct synonym solvers (also an array of clever stuff on the quinapalus wordmatcher and qat). I dont think any of the above is cheating, one still has to work the clue out in all its parts, however there are those who would say that is cheating yourself. There is also the endgame, is wikipedia cheating? Not for me, it is no different than doing it the old fashion way and going to the library - just much quicker. We are just progressing with the times and I must say that setters are moving with it too. There are several solving teams (often married couples / partners) who enjoy tackling these fun puzzles together, seems fine, but what about "phoning" a friend for an answer....now that is contentious. I am pleased to say that AB is adhering to it's unwritten rule these days
I tend to think of it as an 'arms race', midazolam. As each new solving-aid arrives, it is up to the setters to adapt their techniques to keep the general level of difficulty about the same.
I have a couple of books of old Listeners and it's remarkable how easy the earlier puzzles are if you deploy the whole armoury of current electronic weapons. When solving archive puzzles, I now try to only use the aids which would have been available at the time of publication. That seems to render the challenge pretty similar to solving today's batch with no holds barred.
I have a couple of books of old Listeners and it's remarkable how easy the earlier puzzles are if you deploy the whole armoury of current electronic weapons. When solving archive puzzles, I now try to only use the aids which would have been available at the time of publication. That seems to render the challenge pretty similar to solving today's batch with no holds barred.
Came to this fairly late, after a weekend away at family events.
I agree with most of the comments but am puzzled why some are having trouble with the endgame. To me it seems perfectly straightforward, and careful checking threw out a mistake of my own making. All in all, I'm quite content. Thanks Hs.
I agree with most of the comments but am puzzled why some are having trouble with the endgame. To me it seems perfectly straightforward, and careful checking threw out a mistake of my own making. All in all, I'm quite content. Thanks Hs.
Apart from the obvious no-no of getting hints from these threads or the equivalent, I feel happy to use whatever aids I can get my hands on from the internet. I remember those rather wasted hours of several years ago trawling through 20-odd pages of the BRB trying to find the word I needed. However, with this Crossword Maestro, you type in the clue and it tries to solve if for you. That surely is pushing the boundries....well it would be if it was any good! I've tried it on this crossword, and it seems to suggest the correct answers to some clues....but perhaps they were the easier clues anyway.
Surely what aids you you use depends on where you find the pleasure of crossswords. For those, like myself, who don't, for instance, like working out anagrams then surely an anagram solver is great. I cannot, however, imagine where any pleasure would be left in a crossword if an efficient clue solver app. were used.
That is assuming you are doing the Listener for pleasure rather than profit - and when the prize is either a copy of the BRB which we all must have or maybe the possibility of appearing in the lists of those who have completed the most puzzles in the Listener stats. then I take most of us are doing it for pleasure.
By the way on this one I didn't find the pre-amble any less unambiguous than many other Listeners.
That is assuming you are doing the Listener for pleasure rather than profit - and when the prize is either a copy of the BRB which we all must have or maybe the possibility of appearing in the lists of those who have completed the most puzzles in the Listener stats. then I take most of us are doing it for pleasure.
By the way on this one I didn't find the pre-amble any less unambiguous than many other Listeners.
I feel I must side with Texasetes and a couple of others with respect the preamble. I believe that it is sufficient to define unambiguously what is required, even if as one may expect with a Listener not fully explicit, leaving the solver to deduce the final steps. Taken together with the title it was soon clear to me what was going on and if understood should not leave any doubt as to whether anyone's final solution is correct.
AndrewG-S: Would love to participate in a vote on best clue of the week, but unfortunately I hardly ever read them. That is to say, I automatically parse clues as definition and wordplay and forgo the effort that the setters have made to produce a well turned clue. Maybe that is why the &Lits are the last I get ! Indeed that is another reason I find this thread useful; if someone recommends a certain clue then I can go back and admire its cleverness.
AndrewG-S: Would love to participate in a vote on best clue of the week, but unfortunately I hardly ever read them. That is to say, I automatically parse clues as definition and wordplay and forgo the effort that the setters have made to produce a well turned clue. Maybe that is why the &Lits are the last I get ! Indeed that is another reason I find this thread useful; if someone recommends a certain clue then I can go back and admire its cleverness.
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