Listener 4241 Skippers By Ifor

[AndrewG-S]

I cannot find a thread for the puzzle so expect I will be redirected. I think I have this all completed although not 100% on the final step, so this needs a bit more thought. Spent ages on a huge thematic red herring. An enjoyable challenge, thanks ifor.

[fallster]

The theme is proving very elusive to me this week. Are non-Brits at a disadvantage?

[TheBear69]

The last penny finally dropped. Brilliant, Ifor!

[TheBear69]

Fallster, I would say we non-Brits are at a disadvantage but not unduly so. The Internet is a great leveler.

[Ruthrobin]

As most of you know, I write a weekly blog and, in writing it today, have been delighted by all the thematic material there is in the clues. If you are still struggling, try feeding a few words into Google - or just read the clues thinking about the type of theme they might be relating to. Of course, that advice is often valid for Listener crosswords.

I also suggest glancing at the thread about the future of the Crossword Club on the Crossword Centre message board. Rather ominous.

[Scorpius]

I can see one clue that clearly contains thematic material and one other that possibly does, but no more, and they are not enough to lead one to the theme.

The puzzle does seem to present a lot of problems. The third sentence of the preamble is ambiguous: it can mean that the letters are missing from the wordplay part of the clues, or that the letters are not generated by the wordplay. One clue (15) is faulty and leads to a nonsensical answer, and 43 strikes me as unfair, having a strictly superfluous element. But my main complaint is the puzzle's failure to provide anything tangible to lead solvers to the theme. I struck lucky because of a co-incidence that I won't go into, but I can see why some are completely in the dark.

I haven't solved the rebuilding bit and I don't think I'll manage it because none of the letters that I'd expect to find to be rearranged are there. I'm also puzzled by the fact that since the "first attempt" failed there should be some movement of one or more thematic letters, but that cannot be the case since the correct message wouldn't then be readable, and the grid modification is the first thing that solvers are asked to do.

[IainGrace]

Contendo, 6dn is broadly of a type with 12ac.

[Scorpius]

After setting my sights elsewhere I have now completed the rebuild. I must say that the grid is a very impressive feat of construction, and some of the clues are very good indeed. However, I do think it's a pity that many people will not appreciate the grid because they won't penetrate the theme. There are small hints all over the place, but they become apparent only when you know the theme.

[teuchter2]

I am nowhere with this one as yet, apart from the grid filled and the coded message found relatively easily. I have a few ideas about the theme, but suspect none is right. I have been trying to link the first part of the instruction with the rebuilding of the block of cells, but I think that is probably wrong too. It doesn't seem possible.

[IainGrace]

Just for clarity, if our run of instruction letters produces gibberish at some point(s), that is solely because we have misidentified the set of eleven special clues?

[TheBear69]

I think Scorpius is being too harsh. There is nothing whatsoever superfluous in the clue to 43 (it is a great clue!...maybe the best one in the puzzle.) There is plenty to lead the solver to the theme; the preamble draws ones attention to a huge hint.

Those who solve it will certainly appreciate the construction and any who do not, if thay only take the time to look at the published solution, will probably appreciate it just as much.

Aside from the aforementioned problem with 15a, I do think there is a fundamental problem with the description of where the non-wordplay-letters appear, but not enough to detract from the brilliance of the puzzle.

[tilbee]

IainGrace - suggest you re-read the preamble carefully, this does not define the number of "special" clues.

[Texasetes]

My intermediate grid has been complete since Friday evening, since when I've been staring at it sporadically without realising the theme until this afternoon. All that now remains is to determine precisely which block of cells requires rebuilding.

Happily, an online correction has now been made to 15a.

[IainGrace]

Thanks, Tilbee. Yes, undertand that. Previous post inelegantly expressed.

[IainGrace]

Cracked it. One's ability to lead oneself up a blind alley never fails to impress. Skippers/final/first attempt/not known to non-Brits/vague jumble of Tottenham Hotspur seen in the grid/Cup Final weekend. Yes, it's the famous 100th Cup Final in 1981 when Spurs won the replay with the "Goal of the Century". Not.

[Anapice]

Also NOT that famous cricketing son of Maltby, Fred Trueman. There were more red herrings in this puzzle than in may a catch:-)

[Anapice]

Dropped catch there - 'many'.

[Staurologist]

Brilliant! Especially appreciated when the number finally fell into place. Mind you, I wouldn't chastise anyone who didn't get it--I thought it was damned difficult. This story certainly had its first performance in a British theatre, but is perhaps known further afield from the movie version and its associated music. Would it not have been better published next week, closer to the anniversary of the first performance?

[Scorpius]

TheBear69,
Yes, ‘unfair’ was too harsh an accusation, but I don’t altogether agree that 43 is a great clue, the weakness being in the preposition; an alternative preposition or prepositional phrase, in my opinion, would have improved it and, incidentally, would have avoided an ambiguity.
Re your comments on the non-wordplay letters, you may be referring to the fact that in three clues it’s impossible to determine which of two letters is thematic if one hasn’t already latched onto the theme; this adds another veil in the way of solvers who are struggling to get the theme. I think all three should have been clued unambiguously, like 37, especially as the message, which does lead to a thematic feature, is dependent on the placings.
But I don’t want my criticisms to obscure the fact that it’s an excellent puzzle with plenty of thematic material and a final adjustment that is perfectly logical. My slowness in getting the final bit was due to the fact that I was looking for something that wasn’t there.

[jim360]

I thought there was no ambiguity in the placement of the missing letters in wordplay, and where there might have been any it was resolved by considering the corresponding checking clues -- or because, as in 32d, I didn't quite understand the wordplay. THis was even before I knew the theme.

[emcee]

I think some are getting perilously close to giving the theme away. PLEASE be more careful.