Listener 4295: Codebreaker By Zag

[emcee]

Definitely a tough one to get into.

I was going along nicely, solved a few clues and got what I thought was the correct code only to find I've made a slip somewhere.

I think the logic is pretty much wrapped around getting the mappings and once this has been done the puzzle gets much easier.

Anyway, I'm not going to backtrack tonight. My head has fried enough for one session.

[jim360]

I thought I had it but then I didn't. This is a tough nut to crack!

[emcee]

Finally done it (no, I couldn't put it down!). Luckily my slip was easily found.

I have to disagree with my own statement above -- the last eight cells were *very* tough to fill. I can imagine that a spreadsheet/ program will help but I relied upon my old 90s steam-driven Casio + logic.

Decent challenge and a puzzle where the slightest slip spells misery.

Thanks Zag.

[s_pugh]

Well bang goes my 100% submission rate for 2014. I realise they slip in the odd numerical (presumably to weed out dunces like me from the Oxbridge elite) but surely there is a clue in the term 'crossWORD' that implies it should be made from words - as confirmed by the BRB definition. Perhaps it should henceforth be called the Listener Puzzle. Either way this one is patently a stinker and is my last Listener

[jim360]

Your last Listener ever, or was there some other finish to that sentence?

I think it's more than time that the "number puzzles" debate was put to bed. The first numerical Listener appeared in 1932, and since then they've been regular. Numerical puzzles have their role to play in the series, both as a way to attract newcomers (guess what type of Listener I first solved?) and as a chance to explore a whole new set of themes. There's only four a year. It would be a shame to not attempt the other 48 either.

Still seekeing

[logophile]

I vote for a numerical on the penultimate Saturday of every month - this one was brilliant !

[British_Olympics]

The Listener is a bit like the Decathlon - some competitors are stronger at track, others at field, but to excel you need to master both. Very few puzzles are designed to be a sprint, this one is more like a 1500m - it requires a certain amount of stamina and will have you going around in circles for a while.

[AndrewG-S]

This puzzle is pure genius. A small grid and few clues, how difficult can that be?? But the wily setter has made sure that every single bit of logic and head scratching is needed. Usually a numerical speeds up as you go along so the final part is a romp of simply filling in the numbers - far from it with this one, the final step (at least for me) took quite a while. Finally spreadsheets seemed of little help here, even a calculator was unnecessary - just a few bits of paper and a lot of thinking. Brilliant, my favourite numerical ever. Thanks zag (and if you do happen to read these posts I would love to read a blog or discuss how you set it - [email protected])

[Philoctetes]

I haven't even started this yet, and already another regular has given up. Whatever happened to patience? Besides, the thought processes involved in unpicking the wordplay in the best "wordical"** clues are just the same as in numericals.
**The classicist in me suggests "logical" should be the correct word to use, but that might be a red rag to some bulls.

[s_pugh]

I'm with you on patience, but would disagree that the thought processes are the same with numerical puzzles. I don't see the crossword until I pick up the physical paper on Saturday morning (no 'Friday Club' for me!), but having spent 2 hours staring at it without fathoming a single answer (and 4 hours since I posted) I think I've exhausted what patience I had. I'm sure there is a place for such puzzles, I'm just not convinced that this crossword is the right place for them, though I realise that my view is a minority one. Jim360 is strident in his defence of numerical puzzles but then his avatar suggests that he is probably a maths professor - sadly we are not all so gifted - as my 'D' in O-Level Maths confirmed ;¬)

[jim360]

This is a seriously tough one to get into because of the apparent scarcity of information. There's enough there, though, to get going even if it doesn't look like it!

Sorry you don't feel able to do this one, s_pugh. But then for a short while last evening I'd managed to convince myself that it was impossible, so you aren't along in being confused by this. It's amazing that there is enough information to solve this given that everything seems to depend on everything else so where is your entry? But the key is there. A fine creation by Zag.

[crosswhit99]

Take care folks, just one transcription error between working copies means you will have no chance of completing this one, as I found out to my cost last night. The moral .... alcohol and this numerical do not mix !

I'm a big fan of numericals generally and this puzzle in particular. Armed with just old O-Level Mathematics, a list of squares and a logical approach, this one should be within most solvers' capabilities.

[Ruthrobin]

My distinction in O'level math gets me absolutely nowhere in these things and I am convinced that if we had one on the penultimate Saturday of every month, the entry numbers would plummet (unless we were given a choice). This has been a horrendous struggle with lots of back-tracking, despair, cursing etc. and the wine didn't help. Yes, clearly every different type of logic was brought into play and I can understand Physics star jim360 (keep up the pro Listener publicity JG and we'll back you as a future Editor!), logophile and Andrew-g-s singing its praises but it was no fun for us.

[Cagey]

I enjoy the numerical / logic ones. They are what hooked me. However, I know I will be able to solve these, and do not get that feeling when tackling a word puzzle. That makes them more challenging than the number ones. I suspect most solvers are the other way around. I think they should view these as the challenge, since they can normally finish the word ones.
Just to be annoying: there is no maths techniques required here that I did not get taught before secondary school. It is purely the logic that is difficult.
It is an excellent puzzle, because it is pure logic, with very little maths and certainly no technical maths, and does not require a large knowledge of minutiae of language.

[Contrarian]

I can only repeat what others have said. An absolutely extraordinary puzzle, with no loose fat, as it were. I've never been down so many blind alleys in my life.

[jim360]

Oh yes, this puzzle is a stinker for blind alleys!

All the maths that a solution requires is knowledge of square numbers up to 961 and the ability to multiply by 8/18/28/38. Very few sums -- at all. The rest is pure logic. We may never see a more elegant numerical less clogged up by lengthy algebraic expressions. Again, I shudder to recall one such example that had an algebraic expression crossing the lines, e.g. in Number or Nummer by Ruslan one clue was, in full, "(A-2Z)(Z+E+I+T+F+A+Z+B+I+L+D+S+D+Z)(I-D)^2-(B+E+S)(DI-D-F)Z^2". Which is of course not difficult to work with at all! Although that was also the first Listener I solved and I've been hooked ever since, so...

Nothing like that here, thank goodness!

[jim360]

(Ruslan's puzzle wasn't the first I attempted -- I think I may have got close to a solution for 4114 Three-Square by Elap, but it's been so long ago that I can't remember if I finished it or not. Perhaps I did but didn't submit -- but anyway the message here is clearly that at least one more regular solver was brought into the fold by the Numerical puzzles, so they aren't all bad!)

[trux]

I don't much care for numerical puzzles. Indeed, in 2013, I didn't even bother starting the Radix (and so made no submission and so ended the year with 51/51 + 1 non-entry) on the grounds that it required programming to solve. This, however, was just up my street. Terrific battles between the limits of your own logical brain and the setter's minimalist mind. No need for a spreadsheet. No post-prepscholic calculations. For me, by far the best numerical/logic puzzle I've ever attempted. Myriad thanks to Zag. Now, who's going to win the footy?? (only two possible answers but difficult to find the winning logic....)

[Arcticpenguin]

Having come across a few of Zag's offerings in the Magpie over the last year or so I would say this was one of his (her?) easier puzzles believe it or not ! Managed to complete it without recourse to Excel or even a calculator- couldn't say that about those involving base 24 or 25. Usually do these puzzles with background music (radio or CD) but found even that far to distracting. Very clever.

[logophile]

I seriously doubt that a few more numerical puzzles a year would put solvers off the series as a whole, on the contrary, as Jim suggests, it could well encourage more regular solvers (and the numerical puzzles themselves usually have a very healthy number of entries).

PS Congratulations to Madrid on winning the footy

PPS Does anyone know the result ?