I was following the discussion with interest and felt that all that needed to be said was said by jim360, Cagey et al - honestly, Cagey, I think setters look in to gauge responses and perhaps tone down the difficulty that upsets some people, not step it up. Most of us who have received lots of hints in the past have built up familiarity with the Listener over time and solve with far more ease. I actually come here only when I have a full grid these days but I am very happy to give all the hints I am asked for off-line and feel that that is a way of encouraging people to attempt what, to us, too, seemed impossible when we first broached the Listener. That 'US' is my reason for speaking here. Solving as a couple is a very enjoyable social thing and can sometimes be the highlight of the week (OK Get a life!) and lots of single solver friends tell me how much they envy us that privilege. It is only a game. After a couple of 'all corrects' (when I had received lots of helpful hints - sorry!) we are solving for pleasure, as a couple, with no desire at all for yet another Brewers (I wish they would change that prize - even though we never win one from the Listener). The only real advantage of an 'all correct' is that you get to choose the gold cup winners - so I vote firmly for solving as a couple, a family or even a platoon - perfectly legit. Must get back to setting the two on religion and SA. Watch this space.