Listener 4309: Shades Of Green By Gos

[AHearer]

Thanks to Gos for featuring one of my favourites. I did think, though, that many of the clues were Times Cryptic (or even the easy cryptic) standard rather than Listener. It must have been hard to get this to work, so I suppose we can forgive two OED-only lights.

[Contrarian]

Yes, that was probably my second fastest solve ever.

After last week's ridiculously easy numerical, and this, I'm beginning to feel a little unsatisfied.

[olichant]

I found it a bit on the easy side, but was delighted with the theme (which I had only very recently discovered).

[midazolam]

...but I cannot forgive the 3 unches in a 6 letter entry, 4 unches in 8 letter entries, especially when there are already 2 in 5's and 3 in 7's. I am not a strict Ximenean but there surely should be a limit.

[trux]

Love the theme, less in love with the puzzle, I'm afraid. Grid and clue constructions not really up to Listener standard. At least it gives us all plenty of time to have a crack at the latest Magpie and I can already highly recommend both the Pointer and the Ferret - simply beautiful puzzles in both cases with just stunning endgames.

[AHearer]

50% unches is pretty normal for a normal shaded-square crossword, so as long as the clues are straightforward and the lights fairly well-known words I'm happy with that.

[Ruthrobin]

Yes, this was rather easy - we have just spent under an hour on it and I am surprised the unching was accepted by the editors but good to revisit a familiar theme. I am sure there are some tough ones in store to maintain the spread. I must echo Trux's Magpie plug.

[Zabadak]

Mostly straightforward cluing and a theme that fell out pretty quickly, helping with some of the clues on the right hand side. Didn't notice "excessive" unches.

[midazolam]

AHearer, i agree that if the unch rate increases then the general rule is that the clue gets easier, but this is only to save a grid. There is a vast difference between advanced cryptic barred grids and shaded-square grids. It is not acceptable to have this amount of unches in so many entries. If it was the best puzzle of the year where the grid HAD to be created this way then I might forgive, unfortunately it is not.

If setters think that they can create a puzzle that has whatever unch rate they desire, but make the clues easier as a result then we have lost the advanced cryptic barred puzzle that for so many years has been the pinnacle of cruciverbalism.

[AHearer]

Midazolam, I think you and I are basically in agreement, but we came at the issue from different starting points. If this puzzle had been up to the usual Listener standard of difficulty, then the unch level would have been too high. As it is, this one really was not at the Listener level. As to what the right level is, a quick riffle through one of the collections of past Listeners suggests that 50% unches is not all that common even in words of four letters, and the norm is more like 25-30%.

[midazolam]

Interesting AHearer, perhaps "recent" times have changed compared to what was norm before. Since I have been solving and setting I have been brought up on "rough" Ximenean unching, with a little leeway here and there taking an average of Listener, EV, IQ and Magpie. Neither of these four outlets over the last 10 years tend to stray that (this) far. Indeed the Listener gives this unch rate on the web site. All I ask is that newer setters do not think this is the norm rather than the exception. When I started setting, the Listener was deemed the pinnacle and I adapted my setting according to what I solved.

[upsetter]

Bit of a romp, the Telegraph like clues can be forgiven as it is a favourite subject.

[doctormatt]

Yes finished quite quickly. Good idea nicely exercised but would have liked something of interest in the SW.

[lyrabelacqua]

Good fun, if relatively straightforward. Nice to have the weekend free. Love the theme ;).

[emcee]

Good beginner's puzzle.

[aldanna]

Yes, have to agree with the general consensus - quite fun but not challenging. A few really easy clues, too.

[jim360]

Never seen the source. Probably not going to either. What with being rather busy this fortnight, glad of an easy-ish puzzle to some extent, and thankfully the awful unching wasn't too much of an issue. Thanks Gos.

[Cagey]

I also have never seen the source and have no plans to. Given there is word replacement leaving all real words then some of the checked squares are triple checked, albeit with two unclued entries and a clued one. I leave it to a mathematician with way too much time on their hands to work out what this means in terms of ratio of unchecked to checked cells per word. Eg an 8 letter word checked at four places by crossing word of lenght 4 each with 2 uncheckedreplaced by a different word of eight letters (with all different letters at the check sites to make things easy at first) to leave real words. Both eight letter words are half checked, but the 4 letter words are checked somewhere between a half and three quarters.
Anyway the magpie beckons.
Thank you gos, I enjoyed it, and tend not to notice the unchness

[Contrarian]

If you have any affection, whatsoever, for the medium, I would strongly advise you two to see the source.

[jim360]

Is it as good as the more famous of their collaborations?

[Contrarian]

Yes, I think so.