Listener 4333 - Hints And Help

[sunny-dave]

Listener No. 4333 - In the Event of Fire by Flying Tortoise

This thread answers requests that there should be a more directly helpful forum for Listener Crossword solvers on AB.

If you want to participate in the traditional 'elliptical' discussion, comments and thanks to the setter, then a parallel thread has been started entitled "Listener 4333 - Discussion and Appreciation". There will be a link to this in the first reply on here.

[sunny-dave]

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Quizzes-and-Puzzles/Crosswords/Question1400568.html

[olichant]

Nice idea, sunny-Dave. Regardless of where people post, I'm looking forward to an end of the nasty as-hominism (that's probably not a word, is it) that we had last week.

[olichant]

And, actually, you'be chosen a great week for this discussion. The solution to this puzzle involves a quote translated from a foreign language, and there is a real ambiguity as to which translation to use. My personal preference not to reveal themes and spoil the PDM, but it is an annoying ambiguity.

[perseverer]

Keepatit - in answer to your question on the other thread, the editions of ODQ I have checked have the short word you refer to as the second word, don't have the potential seventh word at all, and replace the fourth word with a more modern equivalent. Hence the doubts expressed.

[Keepatit]

Thanks perseverer. It seems sloppy editing, and spoils the conclusion somewhat.

[tristram37]

I have the 2nd, 4th, 5th and 7th edition of the ODQ. 4,5 & 7 agree on the quotation as mentioned by Perseverer. Bafflingly the 2nd edition gives all the words required by the puzzle but has the 3-letter word first. That has the advantage of scanning poetically, but I haven't seen that order elsewhere. So does one put that word first, or second, or even third? I think there will be repercussions!

[Philoctetes]

I must confess that, when I use the quotation, the small word lies third. But that is definitely a mis-translation, which is avoided with the word in first or second position.

[Scorpius]

In the light of tristram37's comment, there is even greater ambiguity than I initially thought.

Has nobody noticed that a synonym of the all-important 4-letter word is staring at us in the final grid? The puzzle loses much of its point with that remaining. Clearly the original quote needs modifying with the insertion of 'but one' between the second and third words.

[EAChaplin]

Clearly the fact that no particular edition of the ODQ was mentioned, indicates that the current 7th is the one intended. The essential part is "using the word order", and affects the first 3 words of the quotation. In word length this would give 8,3,4 as the correct sequence - just my two penn'orth.

[Scorpius]

EAChaplin, I hope you meant 7,3,4.
The word order may be resolved by the current ODQ, but unless the 7th edition (which I don't possess) differs from the 6th, there's the question of an additional word which often appears in versions of the quotation but which is not in the original nor in ODQ. It's possible to have a continuous string of letters with or without this word, each resulting in a different grid. I don't see how ODQ can confirm the word order of a sentence if one word is missing.
I'm not asking for advice in this matter. I know what I shall submit, which is what I think the setter intended, but it's an unsatisfying muddle.

[EAChaplin]

Apologies 7,3,4 of course.
Scorpius - Not only does the 7th edition omit the final word of the quotation but also uses a modern spelling of the fourth word, which is why I conclude that the preamble guides us only to word order. I fully agree that this is very unsatisfactory, but can't envisage any other explanation.

[tnap]

I believe the current edition of ODQ is the 8th. But the same problems with the quotation persist...

[perseverer]

If you take the quotation as an instruction, then you would have to remove the 4 letter word in the grid Scorpius referred to, but also you might consider that you had to remove the crucial word from the quotation itself, and then you might feel you were back at Stick Insect!
...... Just a bit of whimsy.