Listener No 4463 The Evolution Of East Perry By The Ace Of Hearts

[Ruthrobin]

Nice to have a circular one and we were given a very generous hint from the start but the very last two words we had to enter have taken almost as long as the rest of the grid fill. I have had a good grumble but thanks, anyway to The Ace of Hearts.

[olichant]

I wonder, would 10 be one of those words?

I agree about the circular format - I'm a big fan.

[starwalker]

I agree that the hint was a good start, but I do have one or two issues about some of the other answers - 10 being one of them. I shall ponder further on this tomorrow. In the meantime, thanks to The Ace of Hearts, subject to possible revision :-)

[Scorpius]

I got the bulk of the theme very early because many misprints were very easy to identify, then from my fist type B solve I compiled a list of possible and looked for clues that fitted the rest, though one proved elusive. All this early success should have made for an early finish, but I was floundering in the last leg of the race. 10 certainly almost did for me - very obscure. Four others gave me trouble at the end, though in hindsight the clues to those were perfectly straightforward.
Thanks for a puzzle that turned out more of a challenge than it initially appeared to be.

[perseverer]

Got the gist of the theme very quickly, but took much longer for the penny to drop as to what precisely A was. Then being able to fill the outer ring made things much easier. 10 is obscure, but in retrospect the wordplay is simple enough. 17 was my last, though again once you get it it is obvious. Thanks to Ace of Hearts, not a setter I've come across before.
If I am permitted a pernickety quibble, I'm not sure many of the Bs did carry an A in practice.

[Osirun]

Finally toiled over the finish line with 10, which I think is much harder than second-to-last-one-in 17. It is there if you persevere but I think the multiplicative effect of all the obscurities and complications renders 10 borderline (pardon the pun) unfair!

[Liathach]

Not sure if I have the right A. The fact that Bs carry it seems to indicate it unambiguously, but then I am not sure that I agree with the definition around the perimeter. Agree about 10. I needed to check this on Google; it seems to be fairly insignificant and difficult to get to and from!

[pushmi-pullyu]

All there but for... 10.

[s_pugh]

Agree totally with Liathach - there seems to be only one option for A that could be legitimately carried by B (though probably never in reality), and another option entirely that fits with the outer ring definition. Totally ambiguous, which is so annoying having struggled to the bitter end (yes, that darned 10).

[pushmi-pullyu]

Still haven't got 10, but doesn't the title do away with the ambiguity?

[perseverer]

If you are not sure you are correct, then you probably aren't! (A maxim that doesn't always apply, but it does here.)

[midgler]

Is everyone comfortable with the answer count? I have a full grid and everything parsed but bizarrely I'm a 'jumble' over and an 'outward' short!
Like others I'm unhappy with the thematic item. The obvious answer is too obvious, doesn't fit with the perimeter definition and would be anachronistic for several Bs. And then there is still 'evolution' to deal with. But the answer suggested by the perimeter is much too generic for the definition in the initial letters. I'm still looking for a third term.

[icynorth]

I slept on 10, then worked it out in 5 minutes once I'd nailed down the wordplay. I'd not have phrased the definition quite as The setter did, though.

Clue type numbers add up, and a delightfully unambiguous finish, Thanks, Ace of Hearts!

[midgler]

Clue numbers now reconciled. I had entered 5 correctly but in my mind it was the anagrammatic alternative, so I was counting it as a jumble rather than an outward! And all ambiguity now dispelled.

[upsetter]

We had to cheat to get 10, but otherwise an excellent and consistently challenging puzzle.

[tnap]

I can think of several alternative entries for 10 and 11 that would have avoided the unnecessary obscurity. A shame, in an otherwise enjoyable solve.

[Liathach]

Of the two alternatives, only one fits the perimeter definition and it also applies to the one supplied by the misprints. So I suppose that's what must go in the centre. I suppose that resolves any ambiguity. I don't quite see the point of the title in this respect.

[Scorpius]

I have to say that I am pleased that I finished the puzzle early enough to be among the first few posters, thus missing the substantial help given on this thread. Perhaps unsurprising, and I'm sure unintential, but some comments here are specific enough to be considered in breach of the forum's conventions.

[midgler]

I hope I'm not one of the guilty ones - I tried very hard not to be. Actually, looking through the thread I can't really see any comments from anyone which would offer much help. For my education, and that of any other newish members, please could you indicate where the transgressions have occurred.

[Ruthrobin]

Midgler, I believe our conventions are that we don't in any way specifically indicate or discuss what we are entering in the grid or where we have problems. (Yes, I started the thread and said that I had had difficulty with my last two entries and even that was going rather too far.) There is another site where more detailed discussions take place. Here we are simply a group of old friends giving our reaction to what we have solved - which can be helpful and even encouraging, I think, to any newer solver wondering how tough a crossword is going to be, or how easy. Any mention at all of a current crossword is totally disapproved of by the 'powers that be' - and in particular the marker. Hope that helps.

[midgler]

Well, if indicating 'where we have problems' is forbidden, every single post before mine (with the exception of perseverer's) is guilty, although I still don't see how that remotely helps anyone. I'd be interseted to know how those principles apply to the discussion of Shackleton's recent masterpiece.

I came here because I don't like the way the other forum gives hints or even whole solutions. However, I would be the last person to barge uninvited into a 'group of old friends' so I will keep my counsel in future.