Listener 4033: Beat It! by Lavatch

[emcee]

Evening all. I hope you don't mind me setting the ball rolling this week.

This week's puzzle is by Lavatch and has another hefty preamble. Good luck everyone...

[Mr Crossy]

You may be right, turnerjmw! In which case I must revisit the clue that is two up from the earlier ingredient to your sum, from which I harvested the missing letter you now mention, without fully understanding it. Of course, none of this affects the final grid, which I am sure we have both completed correctly. It would just be nice to tie up any loose ends.

[Ruthrobin]

Thanks for that word 'phrases' - that was my problem - yes, indeed, nothing was 'given away there, as anyone can see where that name goes by simple counting.

[turnerjmw]

That clue troubled me for a good while. I ended up with the definition being the last three words of the clue, with the asterisked letter being in the final word. The first two letters were the first word (alternative spelling), while the second word, modified by the third as a cryptic indicator, is modern slang for the remaining letters.

Or at least, that was what I settled on. It is academic, as you say.

[Mr Crossy]

Hah! Fascinating... I had thought the third word modified the fourth, being happy with the last two (not three) as definition. I had not understood the second word at all, and I am quite convinced you are right, turnerjmw.

Still I think, from the preamble, you would expect all five words to be fully represented in the missing letters, without any sharing. If I am right on that score, and you discover the fourth N, I don't know how you could communicate it to me. Perhaps it would be the square root of the number I first thought of :-)

Many thanks for this exchange, it was fun.

[turnerjmw]

You're most welcome. I agree that the preamble makes your inference the more obvious one, but I think it just about supports the alternative. One is still removing those words, but if you think of them as a set it makes more sense that they can share letters. I was also strongly of the view that all the letters not given by the wordplay are precisely those that must be removed, so that would rule out, for example, the clue we have most recently been discussing. But if I have a rethink, I'll certainly be back on!

[Mr Crossy]

turnerjmw, I think your observation is absolutely conclusive. It makes me think, although I may still be on course for an all-correct for the first time in my career, that I still have much to learn!

[failedagain]

Mr Crossy, what's the value of your all-correct status when you've had so much help from other people?

[Ruthrobin]

Failed again, you must have been suffering from being up so late (or should I say 'early':)) when you came in with that comment. I have been following that fascinating discussion with great interest and understood, from the start, that it was between two very able solvers who have both completed the grid correctly but were interested in the 'how' - invaluable to us learners. We could never aspire to the 'all correct' status, but, seriously, do we believe that the 30+ folk who managed it have to sit in an isolation cell and talk with nobody about the Listener's subtle twists? Surely, that is what we are all here for - beginners and 'all corrects'.

[turnerjmw]

Ruthrobin, your answer to failedagain sums up my thoughts eloquently. My earlier posts were made in the belief that Mr Crossy had already finished the puzzle successfully. He only posted on here when he had done so, so any all-correct status owes nothing to any help.

Mr Crossy, many thanks, it was a delight to discuss those points with you, and discover that one clue could be parsed in two quite different ways. As I have only been doing these for under a year, I fear I have far more to learn!

[Mr Crossy]

failedagain, I accept the criticism. I regretted my veiled boast almost as soon as I hit the "submit" button (note to self: don't send emails or subscribe to threads after three glasses of wine). The wider point, whether to use this forum at all, is a subject that keeps coming up. It is a nut that must be cracked, a boil that must be lanced, pick your favourite metaphor. I first came across this place when I was researching for a clue. Hardly surprising, when you think about it: Google an obscure word from a puzzle, and you get a hit on this site! I suspect that's how Listenerite fetched up here too. My first reaction was dismay: I thought, that's it, the genie is out of the bottle. Now, what shall I do? I suppose if I were truly noble, I would turn my back on you all and never show my face. But would that really be so noble, or would it rather be stand-offish? The discussions, as an adjunct to the solving, are almost as pleasurable, and I agree with Ruthrobin that it would be a shame if we all disappeared off into our solitary cells, never again to warm our hearts in the glow of fellow feeling.

Broadly, I think we police ourselves quite well. When someone oversteps the mark, his or her knuckles are mildly rapped by our community.

I don't think I've ever changed my entry as a result of anything learned here. I've had doubts put to rest, certainly. I do understand purists will say even that is too much, and that may be right, for them. On balance I think this forum is a positive thing.

Btw I am getting some kind of Java error message whenever I try to preview this submission, so I am just going to submit it regardless. ttfn

[jamesah]

I enjoyed this despite complete ignorance about the author and his titles. Well done Google!! I thought that the hero fitted in quite nicely- I always like to see new words generated. The shading of the author is neat too giving a nice cryptic indication of a title.

[Cruncher]

I quite enjoyed this although I thought there were a tad too many proper names. I'm still not quite convinced by 5dn - even though the grid entry is obvious enough - seems a bit obligue. And presumably "golf ball" reduces to a 2-letter abbreviation in 12ac - but again it seems a bit of a stretch.

[cruciverbali]

12: see Phonetic Alphabet

5: see def 1(b), ref def 3

[cruciverbali]

Phonetic Alphabet

[Cruncher]

Thanks cruciverbali. That's what I assumed for 5dn. Still think it's a slightly dodgy clue as the shortened answer does not stand alone as a word for 'congress', only as part of the longer more familiar phrase.
But yes had forgotten my phonetic alphabet. Thanks for that.
How do you insert links like that?

[fancydan]

Can anyone gently hint at the four last letters of 9down please.
If my answer is right, I cannot find it in Chambers
Thanks

[turnerjmw]

To format, use the basic html code below:

To italicise: italicise
To bold: bold
To underline: underline
To label a hyperlink:
my label

No other html tags will work.

[turnerjmw]

Sorry Cruncher, that didn't work at all! If you click on the red Tutorial button at the bottom of the page, under Posting Guidelines it explains the html you can use for those instructions.

[Cruncher]

Fancydan - 9dn is not in Chambers but does come up on Chambers Word Wizard (sorry can't work out how to do the link.....) if you type in the available letters.

[turnerjmw]

fancydan, you'll need Wikipedia or Chambers Word Wizard rather than Chambers for the answer. The third word of the clue is contained in the sixth, with the last two as the definition