Listener 4057 Inside, by Hypnos

[robinruth]

Where is everybody? Or are you finding the wordplay as difficult as I did. This was a nice, easy grid fill and the alternatives and associatives were fun, but oh dear, did I struggle with the endgame! Perhaps it was so easy for you experts that you are not bothering to appear this week?

[turnerjmw]

First again, robinruth! Top of the class once more. Unlike a few recent puzzles, there didn't seem to be any shortcuts through inspired guesswork. I quite liked the way one had to work one's way through it, and the extra letters were a good challenge. Some obscure meanings, but it's all in Chambers

[midazolam]

no you are spot on robinruth. There were some really tricky wordplays (and not so easy for me to get those last few) from this debut setter. Then the brick wall appeared again and again. It is strange that a crossword is about word association but it took me such a long time to get the common theme word. I think one of tougher offerings this year for me. Thanks Hypnos

[AHearer]

I found this very much a puzzle of two halves. As usual, I started it on the train home on Friday evening and made unusuallly good progress on the north-west half above the diagonal (apart from 3dn and some uncertainties to be checked in Chambers when I got home). I then struggled over the other half. I liked the thematic material, but took ages to find the variant to highlight. Altogether a pleasant challenge.

[starwalker]

I did get the theme about half way through, but unfortunately, it was not the required word, merely another alternative. As has been said, the final wall/step took a little time. Found it interesting with several of the clues that I knew that I had the correct answer, but took much longer to justify it via the wordplay.

[midazolam]

oh, i forgot to add that "music chart" which can be found in the grid took me on the wrong track for awhile, particularly with the anagram.

[midazolam]

...and if anyone wants a copy of today's inquisitor by dysart (who always gives a challenge) then let me know: [email protected]

[midazolam]

...nowhere near as tough as dysart's previous listeners nor this week from hypnos, although it is a pangram with faultless cluing

[Eril]

I beg to differ, turnerjmw - I could not justify the final letter of 44ac. At least the synonym/contraction I assumed was not in Chambers. Am I looking at it the wrong way? (I know I have it as it is confirmed, it is just a question of that feeling of satisfaction!)

[turnerjmw]

Hi Eril, I had no problem with it. Third entry in Chambers, end of top line

[Scorpius]

Though I enjoyed this I found it a bit of a hotchpotch. The preamble’s enough to put off newcomers to The Listener for life, and the puzzle suffers in my view from an attempt to squeeze the last drop from the theme. A couple of the associative answers, though justified by the Big Red Book, are pretty contrived and I don’t think they contribute much to the puzzle as a whole (it’s not even necessary to get the associations).The answer to 38 across is two words, not one, and I cannot justify the wordplay to 44 except by converting an abrreviation to another, related word, which I don’t regard as legitimate – it’s a bit like cluing S, which can be ‘special” as ‘particular’, though out of fairness to Hypnos it’s quite possibel that I’ve misinterpreted the wordplay.

It was easy enough to find the ‘accessory’ to highlight, but the only 5-letter alternative to the theme word that I can see in the vicinity is not indicated in Chambers as a ‘an early variant’. I shall look further to see if I can find something better.

[robinruth]

Scorpius, I am sure you have the correct highlighting, and, indeed, a \'regional\' variant might have been preferable wording, though one could split hairs over that, too. Are you being a bit picky about the clues? I can\'t see the problem with 44, since that \'abbreviation\' is in Chambers - I think you might have misinterpreted the wordplay. Although 38 appears as two words in Chambers, we certainly use it as one (followed by \'of\' when indicating the position of something in a maritime situation). Agreed about the preamble - we read it aloud with great hilarity a couple of times before even attempting to sort it out. It resembles the \'spoof\' preamble that we intend to publish one day - almost the length of the puzzle.

[Scorpius]

Robinruth, the only way I can justify the abbreviation in 44 ac is by reference to a two-letter abbreviation, of which it forms part. I think I've seen this before in a Listener puzzle, so it's not unprecedented, but I'm not particularly keen on it. By analogy, is it legitimate to clue W as 'weapons' because AWE means "Atomic Weapons Establishment"?

[s436]

I'm not sure why all the fuss with 44: it's one of the easiest clues there. The def is unquestionable, and it's a reversal of a very common 1-letter abbreviation and a 3-letter word which is clearly defined. I can only guess that some miscontrued "over" as the reversal indicator?

[Spaghetti]

Re the 'early variant', I wondered whether it should be read as 'Earl-y variant'?

[cluelessJoe]

Might appear to be an easy clue s436, but I have to agree with you Scorpius - I can't find that common one-letter abbreviation in Chambers (though I still use C 2003 .. has it crept into 2008?). In fact I agree with your complete 'hotchpotch' post. The puzzle was enjoyable but that awful preamble has to be one of the worst ever seen, and there were indeed a couple of pretty tenuous links in places. Again as you point out, if Chambers is being cited as the reference, 38 across should definitely be flagged as two words irrespective of the fact that some people might view it as one. Generally lax work from the editors this week!
I also thought that the final highlighting flew off at an unnecessary tangent which served only to detract from the links running through the rest of the thematic material.

[Scorpius]

s436, it may be an easy clue, but the one-letter abbreviation to which you refer is not a standard abbreviation for the relevant word in the clue, at least not in my version of Chambers. What dictionary does include it? It's not in my Shorter Oxford.

CluelessJoe, the latest Chambers doesn't have it either as far as I can see. I fully agree with the point you make in the last two lines of your comment. It was something I was conscious of when I found the 'variant' and its accessory.

[daagg]

As a newcomer, I would say that I still don't think I understand the preamble, although (I think) I have now filled in the grid and worked out nearly all the extra letters - though I can't make sense of the wordplay in 3dn or 10dn. I even have some suspicions about the theme, but I can't work out what to do next. Can someone give a gentle hint about what is meant by "associative" and "alternative". Am I supposed to find different answers to the thematic clues which are individually related to the grid answers to those clues? Or are the extra answers related to each other?

[twoshortplan]

Aaaaaaargh! She\'s just lit the fire with a few pages from Saturday\'s paper. Of course that included the crossie. I haven\'t even looked at it yet. Please can some kind person email me a copy?
Thanks
David Lynd
[email protected]

[cluelessJoe]

HI daag - yes and yes sort of.
Your eight thematic clues each generate an extra word - four of these, the alternatives, are synonyms for your grid answers. The associateds are words supposedly commonly associated with your grid answer (eg if your answer was Christmas, the extra word could be cracker .. or card, or present etc)
These eight extra words are sort of related to each other - some directly, but all through their common link with a ninth word (the one which is the answer to the extra letters' wordplay). Hope that makes some kind of sense.

[daagg]

Thanks cluelessJoe (though you're obviously not!) I'll go and scratch my head a bit more.