Listener 4112: Girl by Xanthippe

[Zabadak]

Really, really laugh-out-loud funny crossword, worth all the struggle through the barless grid and the decent, twisty set of clues. Goodness knows what form you're supposed to submit it in, but no doubt I'll work something out. Perhaps not the hardest (though it seems to be a late entrant tonight) but easily the most cheerful in ages. Raucous cheers to Xanthippe!

[jamesah]

I agree with Speravi. I like the interesting endgames but the difficult part of the crossword should be the clue solving not the interpretation of vague instructions which seem to require a high degree of lateral thinking. I'm still not sure what the 4th and 5th words of the instructions refer to so I can't see where to do the first two words. I hope that the explanation given with the solution will be much more explicit than usual so that I can ask my wife to demonstrate her skills with origami.

[daagg]

jamesah, think about why the little numbers are positioned where they are, and what "hints" you would normally expect to carry out the first part of the instruction. Combining those two ideas might lead you to the required insight.

[Mysterons]

jamesah - you need to ask yourself (or your wife) why something that isn't usually required when submitting carte blanche grids is required in this case (because it's required for the completion rather than the submission of this puzzle) - as daagg says, the little numbers then come into play.

[jamesah]

Thanks to Daagg and Mysterons but I did think that I understood the significance of the little numbers although I might well be wrong! If anyone would like a challenge perhaps he or she could e-mail me on '[email protected]' with instructions that I could follow(I can never cope with instructions from IKEA either!).

[Speravi]

My problem with the instructions is that they were prima facie incomplete. If one carried out the first part of them and then acted to implement the second part with what was visible at that stage, then the instructions fail to work as intended. The only way I could see of surmounting this was to anticipate what the instructions were intended to yield, which, I agree, is not what one expects from instructions.

My problem with the preamble was the initial reference to "Initial or fourth..." followed by "Letters from extra words not used..." which in the context of "Initial or fourth..." was misleading because it required a context of initial and fourth letters.

The cluing, to be fair, was of a high standard, I thought.

[AndrewG-S]

While I never bothered to check it out, having got the answer by intuition rather than following any instruction, it did look to me like the second instruction related not just that which was at that point visible.

[Clamzy]

I think speravi has a valid point and Jogler made a similar one recently. To mislead in clues as in "regularly blown" in this puzzle is of the essence of a good setter, but the preamble is quite another matter.

[daagg]

Why can't we have cryptic preambles if we can have cryptic clues?

[contendo]

Actually you've picked on a poor clue there, Clamzy, because regularly does not define the word that is "blown", though it is so used in common speech. Also the place defined is certainly not "by" the Fens.

[Clamzy]

Daagg I don't think that is the purpose of a preamble.
contendo - I did't quote it as a good clue but an example of the art of deception. "Regularly" would be designed to set the solver looking at every alternate letter - an oft used device.

[Philoctetes]

I tend to agree with Daag. More often that not, the best Listeners consist of a puzzle with an "Endgame" (like the current one). The main feast is the puzzle, with a whole range of clues designed to perplex. But the best endgames are surely those where their true nature is only gradually revealed, and, in particular, where a careful reading of the preamble exposes an ambiguity which leads to one last PDM. An explicit preamble would tend to be over-long, and would give too much away as to how the puzzle itself is to be approached.

[Lewap]

Hi all

As tomorrow's listener is almost upon us, could anyone give me some hints on this one? I have filled the grid, and located what I assume are the items referred to in the first part of the instruction. (although one only truly appears when the first has been dealt with). The small numbers seem to make sense during this phase. Then I applied the second instruction...and threw the resulting mess in the bin. I reckon I am on the right track, but I must be missing something! Any help to [email protected]

Thanks

PS Anyone know how long it usually takes for prizes to arrive? Came runner-up a few weeks back, but nothing from The Times yet...

[freddy505]

laugh out loud is right! an untoppable pdm

[Speravi]

I'm not asking for an explicit preamble, merely one that is accurate. The problem stems, I think, from instructions derived from superfluous letters or words, which leads to enforced brevity and not all setters' ideas are susceptible to brief exposition.

[IainGrace]

If the four word phrase strikes you, as it did us, it is possible to identify its components in the grid without mucking about with scissors and cellotape. Assuming we have identified it correctly, it appears symmetrically in the grid, albeit that the grid itself is assymetric.

[Philoctetes]

I have just realised where I was going the wrong way to get the right answer. I interpreted the hints as being one phrase rather than two which made me quite perplexed. However plainly clever a setter might be, he is no match for a stupid solver!