Listener 4113 Liberty Bell by Pieman

[cluelessJoe]

Phew, that was a tough one

[AndrewG-S]

If they are listed as a noun in BRB (rather than an abbreviation), doesn't that make them real words?

[JackDeCrow]

Hmm...I hadn't thought of leaving the squares in question blank. But, on reflection, that seems even less like a real word or name than the single letters. Perhaps both will indeed be acceptable liberties!

[Mysterons]

Chambers defines a word as the smallest unit of language that can be used independently - whilst letters are certainly nouns, and are also arguably small units of language, I'm not sure that they can be used independently unless they have a specifically recognised meaning, eg 'a' or 'i', because they are really symbols for sounds. The preamble doesn't refer to abbreviations, and I don't think any grid entries in this puzzle are (ie have to be) abbreviations ? Similarly, single letters can be symbols or prefixes, as with the 3 examples in this puzzle, but these apart I can't see an example that you might be referring to perseverer. The three blanks would only affect anagrammed entries and would leave only real words, but as you say Jack, I hope both options will be acceptable !

[dr b]

Thanks, cJ, and the same to you all. I'm giving thanks for a day off tomorrow, while wondering how I'm going to devote it to the Listener and ignore my house guests.

[perseverer]

The one I was thinking of is the first letter of 63ac - using the Chambers CD Rom, as part of the first entry under this letter, it seems to give the single letter as a 19th Century euphemism. I don't have Chambers 2008 to check that.

[AndrewG-S]

I was using the Chambers App which gives an independent meaning to two of the letters and for every letter used it lists them as a noun meaning anything shaped like the relevant letter. Interestingly this does not seem to apply to all letters of the alphabet, for example Q does not seem to have such a usage. This does make them feel like words to me.

[Mysterons]

Thanks perseverer - Chambers does indeed give B or B flat to be a nineteenth century euphemism for the domestic bedbug, B being a musical note. I'm just not sure that a letter as a symbol, whether for a sound, musical note or anything else, is really a word. I can see how a letter can describe the shape of an object (eg as an affix), but not as an independent unit.

[trux]

R u sure ? I m not ....

[JackDeCrow]

Well the BRB itself defines a noun as "a word used to...". So, if a letter can be a noun, I guess it's also a word!

[AndrewG-S]

This is why I love the Listener, last week I would never have thought I would be debating whether a single letter can constitute a word!
Let me thank
Answerbank
For debating if a letter
Is a word for the setter

[Ruthrobin]

A delightful debate - and I saw it all a different way. To my mind 'only real words' had to be 'left' (i.e. not used in creating the refrain) so it didn't really have any importance whether a single letter could be a word or not - though I am now convinced that it can. Isn't it great how these Answerbank discussions make us reinterpret our assumptions?

[perseverer]

Is this a good time to remind numerophiles and numerophobes (neither in Chambers) to get the calculator out of the drawer for Listener 4114?

[Mysterons]

Further research suggests that you lot may be correct:

http://www.oneletterw.../oneletter/index.html

http://uncyclopedia.w...words_starting_with_A

http://www.youtube.co...lE1mQ&feature=related


....... or R U ??

[mullingar]

Can anyone explain the wordplay in 42 down Is welcoming neighbour aboard with vessel(8) I can see the neighbour and that's about it. Any ideas?

[mullingar]

And I have the vessel

[BlackHugh]

After taking dr b's suggestion (thank you sir) I also listened to the speech (on youtube) - the first time for me - I'm no longer wondering why it is still remembered.
So I identified the refrain and was then bashng my head against a wall for a couple of days staring at the anagrams - until I decided in the lack of anything else to do to get out my red pencil... one could say I then had a great 4112

mullingar - there is a short word for neighbour surrounded by a word for with together with a somewhat unusual interpretation for "Is".

[trux]

Mullingar : re 42D : abbreviations of "is" and "neighbour" aboard (i.e. contained within) "with" (think of your school days !) ...

[trux]

Sorry ... wrong explanation of "Is" ... rather appropriately this is the plural of the single-letter word "I" - welcoming (i.e. outside of) "neighbour" - the whole lot "aboard" (i.e. inside of) "with" ...

[Clamzy]

As you say RR a fascinating debate. One other consideration may be that leaving the letters(words) in place proves you solved the clues in the first place.

[cluelessJoe]

Well my reasoning left me firmly in the Mysterons camp, if only because I personally objected to the thought that those single letters could be construed as 'real words'. I can't see that the editorial team could do anything other than allow both versions, given that the preamble is so ambiguous - 'changes' could mean virtually anything as could 'liberty' .. free interpretation or release of letters? This is a debate - however fascinating - which should not really have been allowed to happen! Shame ... and to crown it all we have those accursed numbers to look forward to this weekend.