sorry owllady for joining this post but the debate can go on and on and on,i gave slimseeker an answer as she was so kind as to give owllady some , i do not mind one way or the other it is up to the quizzers weather or not they give clues or answers or indeed if they answer or not is is their choice, any way that is the last im going to say on this debate, i still need answers but it is a bonus if i get any the quiz will go anyway. thanks again to anyone who has helped most grateful