Guardian Genius 41

[ulysses100]

I've only got four clues left to solve two of which still involve trees. I don't think that I have made any errors, although there are some strange trees.
I have two ashes and two elms With the letters that I have in the grid the other tree mentioned twice is either fir or oak, for 14 and/ or 18dn. I'm also stuck on 8dn and 13 ac.
Any clues or hints please ?

[kettledrum]

I don't do this xword. Can you give us the clues, or is it more complicated than that?

[Quizmonster]

It was only seeing your question that reminded me I had not finished this crossword after starting it a couple of weeks ago. Must get on...if I ever get the time!
The answer to 8 down is 'Sobers'...ie sobersides = serious-minded chap minus 'side' = team. Sobers was, of course, a cricket-team captain.
I think I know the tree involved, but your request for 'clues or hints' suggests you'd rather work on it yourself.
I hadn't got as far as 13 across.

[ulysses100]

Thanks kettledrum, but, as you surmised, it is much more complicated than that - and from what quizmonster has also said one of my answers is wrong, which means that another is wrong as well.
Thanks quizmonster --having spent another few minutes over this and thinking that that answer must be wrong I can say that you are right, and that I've manged to find another tree -- albeit only two letters long.
That still leaves me with one other tree to find and two "normal" clues . I presume that it is ilex in 21 ac..
By the way kettledrum the remaining clues are :
Stroke or pinch round edge of rough _R_T_
Sisters favour trills _A_E_S
Bow's bus system in the past went round outskirts of Belsize first (9) _A_I_S_C_ (This may well be the one that contains the letters of a tree in the correct order)

[Quizmonster]

The problem here, Ulysses and Kettledrum, is that the letters given for the clue reading "Sisters favour trills", for example, may well not be the actual letters involved! Just 'answering' the clues produces the letters ?A?C?S rather than ?A?E?S.
You see, K, the instructions with the crossword made it clear that one had to solve the clues in the normal way and then look for a set of consecutive letters in the answers which could be transposed to form the name of a tree. Only after the transformation should the answer be entered.
For example, the answer to 9 across was KAON. There we see the three consecutive letters KAO which can create OAK, so the final entry is OAKN.
Of course, you can't necessarily just write the answer in until you check criss-crossing answers, because you may well have to alter other letters in an answer!
Is that about as clear as mud, would you say?

[ulysses100]

Thanks QM -- I've got all that.
For 23ac the answer is reinforces, out of which I have made conifer, to give as the answer reconifers, which gives me the "e" for 18dn. I know that all the other trees have been specific and conifer covers a whole range of trees but I don't see another within the answer.

[Quizmonster]

I agree totally with your trees for 21A and 23A, U, but maybe the 'A' from 'TAX...' isn't an 'A' after all! Thus, the 'sisters' clue may only be ???E?S.
Of course, you have clearly taken this puzzle further than I have, so perhaps you know that the 'A' stands. (Even if it does, I still can't at the moment see what the answer is!)
I'll have another look later in the day. Meantime, 'real' life intervenes! Cheers

[ulysses100]

Thankyou QM --- maybe it's just that I can't see the wood for the trees !

[kettledrum]

Thanks both of you....I'm clearly not going to be able to help at all on this one.
Is this a subscription puzzle - rather like the Times monthly - but more complicated ?
Is it much more complicated than The Spectator ( which I think you introduced me to, Ulysses ) and The Independent Magazine? - both of which I enjoy enormously and usually finish. But the Listener is usually beyond me! Might give it a whirl after Christmas, as I don't see myself having time for another challenging puzzle before then.

[ulysses100]

kettledrum -- yes, this is a subscription puzzle. If I remember correctly it's �25 a year. It can be quite variable, and the solve rate is variable as well. Apparently there were less than a 100 correct entries last month.
Like you I also enjoy The Spectator, which I complete 99 times out of 100 - and the Independent magazine (but not as high a percentage rate of completion !). The Listener I always have a look at, but can only solve about half a dozen a year (unlike QM I understand !).
Two of the remaining clues that I gave above are supposedly "normal" ones -- so, if you have any flashes of inspiration I will be most grateful.

[ulysses100]

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Quizzes-and-Puz zles/Question324212.html#top

[Shivster]

Some possible help from me - or I might just add to the confusion!

14dn OBEISANCE - I know the tree, let me know if you want it :)

I think I know the answer to 'Sisters favour trills' but can't quite justify it all.

GRACES = sisters
races = trills
so how do we get the g from favour?

the tree could then be ACER

final answer to be entered = GACERS

[kettledrum]

Shivster - I don't think you have a problem with the 'g'.

Grace notes are those introduced as an embellishment - (ie a trill) - not being essential to the harmony or melody.

a favour is an act of grace (Chambers)

[ulysses100]

Thanks for obeisance shivster .. The tree is then the Abies genus of firs.
Which means that the only clue I have left is a "normal" one and that is 13ac :
Stroke or pinch round edge of rough _R_T_

And that also gives me 26 trees and not 25, and only two of the trees are used twice (ash and elm).
My doubtful one now is 2dn which I have as Aten and thus tea(n).

[Aperio]

Aten is the sun god. I understand where "at" comes from but how does "the end regularly" result in "en"?

Gean (cherry tree) fits and is also in 17dn which would give you your "three trees used twice".

However, I can not see how gean can be derived from the cryptic clue.

[ulysses100]

Aperio,
Aten comes from regularly in At ThE eNd, but this does not fit in with Pelite from 1ac, giving the tree "teil" and hence "tea" tree in 2dn.
Therefore gean only appears once --- in 17dn

[Quizmonster]

Ulysses, I'm not clear where you get the idea that 13 across is 'normal'. There are 28 clues in toto and the rubric says there are 25 theme-words, three of which are used twice...ie 25 + 3 = 28 tree-names in all. In addition, it says that "each" solution has to be adapted. Surely that means 13 across has a hidden tree in it, too.

[ulysses100]

Thankyou QM - the penny has dropped !
I read it as 25 clues , of which three were duplicated -- and, as there were 28 answers three of then would be "normal" answers.
I have just seen that the answer to 6dn which I already had as redact contains cedar (silly me !), which now appears twice !
However it still leaves this remaining clue and I have yet to see a tree within it.

[Quizmonster]

I haven't sussed out the clue, U, but there is a tree called a 'rata' which would fit into 13 across. Any ideas from that?

[ulysses100]

Great minds think alike !
I have literally just been looking at rata, but that means that the real answer can only be in the form _ARAT or _ARTA. There is only one word that I can find that is _aat and that is Maat -- either an Egyptian goddess or being dejected.and nothing fits with the other either So, no luck there I'm afraid.
I'll keep hunting.............

[ulysses100]

At last, I've solved the clue....
the answer is TRAIT which is a stroke or touch according to Chambers, and TAIT is a small portion or a pinch......... but I still cannot see the tree !!!!!!!!!