ev 770

[Physicsgirl]

previously had help with this one, but the answer disappeared. Can anyone confirm where the perimeter entry should begin, and also that 19a is LINOTILE and 16d is SILENT? thanks as ever

[Physicsgirl]

mistyped, I meant 2d. Sorry. Brain addled. Cannot compute.

[Quizmonkey]

I'm sure I'm not the only one to think that certain people here are trying to tackle crosswords that are far beyond them. If you need this much help to "solve" a puzzle AND you insist on guessing vaguely at answers (a practice which is an insult to the compiler) you really should be sticking to lesser crosswords. No offence, obviously.

[Christiana]

No offence taken Quizmonkey, but I think that's rather an unfair comment. I've finished this crossword unaided twice and have improved immeasurably since first starting it a few weeks ago. I guess Physicsgirl and I are still learning the ropes where this particular crossword is concerned. It's a learning process. And 'hypothosizing' can sometimes help to get answers around the answer you're unsure of or eliminate it.

[Quizmonkey]

By hypothesizing, I assume you mean "stabbing wildly at ocher as an answer, merely because there's a reference to yellow in the middle of the clue, and despite the fact that it's US spelling and none of the other words in the clue have any bearing on it as a valid answer"? Oh, I see...

I just wonder what sense of achievement someone gets when virtually the whole puzzle solution has been handed to them on a plate. Obviously your conscience wouldn't allow you to actually enter this prize contest, having been given all the answers...

[Physicsgirl]

Not fair, quizmonkey! I did last week's all on my own excepting 2 cells. We have to start somewhere. I see that you have written that there is no offence intended but your comment is quite upsetting nonetheless. What harm can there be in trying to improve oneself? Particularly as I never submit them anyway. Maybe you were born knowing all the crypic tricks and pointers, but some of us are still learning.

[Physicsgirl]

Actually, I would like to ask others if they mind giving their advice - I've had nothing but kind words and encouragement from all other ABers since starting EV four weeks ago, but would not like to think that my use of AB as a discussion and tutorial tool is frowned upon by the AB community.

[Quizmonkey]

I'm not intending to upset - and I obviously had to start somewhere too, when there was no such thing as AB to provide all the answers on a plate. This site is fine for giving people help with that last elusive clue, or explaining to cryptic newbies how clues work, but surely there are limits. Do you not agree?

Also, I believe help was asked as early as last night. You have almost a week to solve this puzzle. Does that not suggest that people are not trying anywhere near hard enough for this level of puzzle?

[Quizmonkey]

Incidentally, as I'm sure you know, I have helped out hundreds and hundreds of times on this site - I wouldn't be here otherwise. But surely giving answers in bulk is both pointless - and insulting to those who have worked to solve the puzzle independently and to the setters themselves. Don't you agree?

[Physicsgirl]

It's true that I put a post up last night asking for a tip. Also I appreciate that you have almost a week to solve this particular puzzle, and last night was early to ask for a pointer. If I think it's way beyond me then I stop. It's a very interesting point that AB did not exist when you started - so how did you start? I assume that you waited for the solution and then learnt from that. Also interested to know how people found definitions for words such as scail in last week's puzzle. I have come across more words that I didn't know existed in the last 4 weeks than ever before in my adult life - so how do people know them?

[MatydaLover]

This is a question that I've thought about a bit too.

Quizmonkey has a good point about sense of acheivement, and I believe that the lazier won't come back after a while. But Christiana and Physicsgirl are coming back - so I say give them the credit for wanting to learn.

There's also an unwritten law in EV that you never question anyone's train of thought - we all look at false leads. That the essence of discovery - someone has to go there ... else how do we know they're false?

[Physicsgirl]

I do not wish to take anything away from people who solve independently, or the setters themselves. I certainly don't want to insult anyone. Getting bulk answers is defeating the object if you wish to complete and have a proper sense of achievement. But as a learning tool it is very valuable. Last week I completed (as said) the vast majority of clues myself, but later put a post up asking for help explaining the cryptic parts of some words. I found this enormously helpful. Is this acceptable do you think?

[MatydaLover]

People don't know the words. I guess like me, they search Chamber's for words that fit. Almost every week there's words I've never heard of before. I just have to plough through until I find it.

I like the idea that if you can pronounce it, then it's probably in Chamber's.

[Christiana]

Physicsgirl - I've been on site about three years now and I've always found most of the ABers extremely helpful. I think most ABers would say they are happy to offer advice and discuss clues. Certainly that is my experience - and I believe that you, like me, have put a lot of work into trying to get the answers and have done many of them on your own. I don't believe talking through some of the clues constitutes 'in bulk' and there is no pressure on anyone to answer if they feel someone is asking too much. But inevitably everyone has different 'limits'. Please don't feel discouraged. It's lovely to have you on board and striving for greater things, rather than settling for easier options.

[MatydaLover]

But I have to confess. I have collected over 240,000 words (Chamber's plus others) and my ancient c++ search program lists them all in less then 4 seconds.

So I have to say that all's fair in love and crosswords.

[Christiana]

Having read your last post I would like to add that asking explanations for answers is positively approved of.

[MatydaLover]

Please continue to ask for assistance. It won't be long before you are providing it!

[Quizmonkey]

I had a very early start - my mother used to do the cryptic in Woman's Own (!) and she used to take me through it long before I was old enough to understand the clues. So cryptics came fairly early (plus I'm a linguist) and I naturally advanced to the advanced, so to speak.

Everyone learns new words doing advanced puzzles - that's part of the appeal (and one way of making advanced puzzles advanced). When wordplay appears to lead to a word previously unencountered, you just check it in Chambers surely? Isn't that how it works? :)

I applaud you (or anyone) for wanting to improve, but surely you've suggested the best way to do so yourself: looking at solutions once published (and once you've gone as far as you personally can go) and learning that way?

[Quizmonkey]

I reiterate: there is a diference between 'asking for assistance' and revealing all the complexities and beauty of a brilliantly constructed puzzle on the day of its publication.

[teacher1]

Physicsgirl - ask all the questions you want to - that's what this site is for - and there are plenty of people willing to help.

p.s. Welcome to the AB

[Ont-ice]

Go for it Physicsgirl.
I wonder what would have happened if Sir Edmund Hillary had looked at Mount Everest and said, �I can�t do it.�
And there were lots of folks who said he couldn�t do it, or he shouldn�t do it, as it was too much of a challenge for him.
But he did do it, and he had willing help from Tenzing Norgay and his team leader, John Hunt.
There are many Tensing Norgays and John Hunts on the AB site, so climb your mountain Physicsgirl. One day you will reach the top.
Good luck to you.