Listener Crossword 4082

[Zabadak]

This is a terrific technical challenge, with some fine and fair cluing. It made my head spin towards the end, and I suspect transcription into the final grid is going to be particularly prone to errors. Anyone got any suggestions for foolproof cross-checking?

[bellabee]

I think I've hit a brick wall on this one. Got the grid filled pretty quickly. After a long struggle got the hints for the 7 word pangram and tried to work backwards from the penultimate (5 letter) word of the down pangram to get the corresponding 5 letter across pangram word. However, this gave me a non-word XMSOV. I dread having to trawl Chambers for another 7 words when I;ve got 7 perfectly good answers already. Has Sabre actually constructed two down pangrams using the same 'hints', where one set of answers is completely misleading? Following the order of the extra word 'hints', my answers are as follows: 3 letter word - 5 letter - 3 letter - 4 letter - 3 letter - 4 letter - 4 letter. Should I throw them ALL away and start again? I really hope not. Any guidance gratefully received.

[Jogler]

Well - between us we have done the clues and sorted the pangrams. Pleasing, for sure, but I am slightly with DrB on this one with reference to pdm's - but they can't all be the same and this one was certainly a terrific technical challenge! I agree with Kwyjibo on the delightful 15 across; it was our vote for the clue of the puzzle. Now to the dreaded grid filling.

[midazolam]

bellabee, I think you have lost your way with the decoding from down to across. keep at it

[patmark2]

bellabee, don’t despair. You’re almost there, but your working backwards is not right, as you’re missing a step. Try to think about what’s happening with your five letter word. You know which grid letter in the down answers encodes to each of the five letters. Now look at the cells in the grid, and you will see the grid letter in the across answers that encodes to the same letter. So although you now have five letters of the across pangram they are spread throughout the alphabet. Then you have to play around with the order of the other words in the down pangram until the across one falls out.

[bellabee]

thanks midazolam and patmark2 - I'm sure this will help, although I haven't twigged it yet. I would have given up if I'd thought I was way off.

[Mysterons]

Well said patmack - this becomes so much easier when you realise that the final grid rather than the preliminary fill contains letters from the pangrams - therefore no ambiguity re first and last words.

[kwyjibo]

It was Clueless Joe not me re 15ac, but have to agree especially as the answer was pangrammatic. Interesting to note that the Chambers definition of a pangram. I seem to remember a previous pangram Listener some years ago.

[Eril]

kwyjibo - >>>When you've completed the puzzle there can be no doubt about the correct order of words in the pangrams. <<<
Not sure what you mean by that - is there a final PDM that I am missing? The grid is filled, pangrams found, it there more?!

[teuchter2]

Thanks Patmark2. I was making the same mistake as Bellabee, but thanks to your excellent explanation of what was going wrong I have managed to make sense of the whole thing and get the pangrams. Now comes the coding in the grid. Incidentally, especially for Ruthrobin, I managed to catch up on the previous two after my excellent trip to the Philippines. It was a good thing that 4080 was so easy. I haven't got a perfect submission as I didn't manage the numerical one, but this is my best year so far I think.

[silversolver]

Just had a pleasant afternoon in the sun finishing off last week's double crossing epic and filling the grid on this one, which I have now done (although I seem to be missing one letter from the alphabet in the completed grid for both the down clues and the across clues - I presume they should be "pangrammatic"?)

After a barbecue and some Pimms I will move on to trying to work out those pesky pangrams

[kwyjibo]

Eril - I was responding to earlier posts about the order of words in the pangrams.

[Ruthrobin]

Good to have you back, Teuchter. Yes, Silversolver, clearly the clues need to give you all the letters but you will probably find that your last letter to be inserted in the grid gives you the final one in the other direction (one only of each).

[bellabee]

will have to sleep on this one. Glad teuchter saw the light but I'm not sure I'm following patmark2's advice correctly. seems to require an awful lot of trial and error in juggling the other words for the down pangram...but maybe tomorrow?

[jacinth]

Quite enjoyable, this. The pangram stage took me a while because I'd made a transcription error when making up a table to help, and I hadn't spotted that I'd underlined eight extra words but only written out seven definitions to look for! The one I'd left behind was certainly one of the simpler definitions. The grid fill was a good one to chip away at - there was always something to do, and certainly not a slog like 'Forced Entry' a few weeks ago.

I'll leave the grid fill for later I think!

[Ruthrobin]

Bellabee, adding to what Patmark2 said - when you have found your first five letters of the across pangram, you will see that certain letters are common to across and down - giving you two words that are almost identical in the two pangrams - that will help you to work out the position of one word in each of the pangrams. The rest comes fairly quickly. Hope that helps. Sleep well.

[bellabee]

yes i saw that ruthrobin but my 3 four-letter words for the down pangram collectively give me six possibilities for changing the initial letter while creating words. so what I was hoping might narrow down the possibilities actually expands them. I dont expect I'll much sleep tonight.

[borealis]

Bellabee, you may have got past this hurdle, but your earlier posting of "XMSOV" means you are coding in the wrong direction. (I did too!) The preamble doesn't tell you which way to code between the two alphabets. Try the other way.

[Zabadak]

Silversolver/Ruthrobin: I think I agree, in that my final grid is a pangram, but my down answers are a pangram -1: in other words, the only representative of one letter in the grid is an unchecked across square.

My favourite clue in the grid, for what it's worth, is 20d.

[Ruthrobin]

Yes, exactly, Zabadak, but, clearly your remaining letter has to go there, as you need a pangram in both directions.
Bellabee, you are almost there, since one of those six letters is already in your across pangrams - by trying your other four-letter words in the likely slots, you will soon eliminate four of the other five - and you're there!

[daagg]

I agree with cJ - 15ac was the answer of the year. I couldn't believe my luck when I found it in Chambers on the last possible combination of unused letters.