Could The World Exist Without The Universe.?

[modeller]

For instance if we only had our galaxy , could our world have still been created ? If for instance could the big bang have been a little bang resulting in a single galaxy with its solar systems , one of which was ours. ?

The reason for the question is I was told today by a cleric we are unique but it needed the whole universe for us to be created.

[jim360]

The 2.36 is a theoretical upper limit and we will never see it all for two reasons:

1) That requires a Universe that lasts indefinitely

2) Redshifted galaxies become increasingly invisible as they Sugar out of our light spectrum, and more and more galaxies become redshifted. Hence his argument that we will "see it all" is invalid. We have either seen it all now... or never will.

I'm just saying this really for my benefit. One argument with a Christian broke down when I was encouraged to "look past the numbers"... as if ignoring the only things we can be certain about is the correct way to conduct a debate when scientific concerns mattered.

[modeller]

Ok I'll get it and send it to him. He's a very nice person and he always chases me up to go to his talks . He says you will come, wont you I need someone to disagree and challenge me . whereas the rest of the audience just nod in agreement.
I'm well and truly the thorn amongst the roses.
One thing I won't go to are anyone's sermons . That really is nauseous .

His talks however also include lots of goodies , gateaus, rich trifles, beautiful hams etc.

[modeller]

Can anyone give me a link for the Contact film on a short video say half an hour , that covers the main pros and cons. I can find the full film 2hr+ but the cleric is not going to wade through all that, as most of it is padding .

[jim360]

I'm not sure anyone's yet turned it from film into religious documentary, and if they have I won't be able to find it any better than you will.

[Old_Geezer]

If reality was created by divine intervention then you would need no large universe, divine will produces what it wants, where it wants it, as large as it wants, and then maintains it. On the other hand if you want a working system that evolves into worlds such as this one then you need the whole shebang to allow the necessary ingredients to come into existence and form worlds.

What sort of deity does your clerical friend believe in that they think it doesn't have the power to do whatever it wills ?

[modeller]

^^^ I like it !

[jim360]

Would even a Creator be bound by physical laws, though (whatever those turn out to be)?

[modeller]

^^^^^Presumably they would be his laws to do what he wants.

[jim360]

Perhaps. Anyway it's a hypothetical question with no answer that I can see. It's clear that there are theoretical limits to any Creator's power in the "rock too heavy" paradox, though those limits don't really mean much. On the other hand I do think it's an open question as to whether or not a Creator would be constrained by any physical laws, up perhaps to a certain freedom of choice. Example: even humans can construct (on paper) model Universes and find that several such Universes don't achieve what you want -- so that while you are free to choose the parameters you would not be free to determine what outcome follows that choice. In that way, if a Creator wanted to establish a Universe in which Humans could exist, the number of ways in which he could do so would be constrained somehow.

Or perhaps I'm being stupid in asking -- but I don't think it's too pointless a question.

[Old_Geezer]

I suspect much depends on how much continuous maintenance a deity would be prepared to make. All sorts of invalid conditions could be the case as long as the deity fends off the unwanted results and replaces them with wanted ones.

Re the "rock too heavy" thing. Maybe this is comparable to the wave/particle duality thing. If one looks for the creation of a rock that can not be lifted, one finds oneself with a viewpoint of reality where the deity is failing to lift the rock. But if one looks for a deity being able to lift even an "unliftable" rock then one finds oneself with a viewpoint of reality where the deity succeeds in lifting the rock. Reality may be everything that can be, being at once. Paradoxes disappear when one understands more and realises that the question is invalid.