I Wonder Why This Number Is Rising So...
Politics2 mins ago
god v aliens
do aliens exist, cause it occurred to me the other day that if they do then that totally rules out the theory of god because in the bible it says that there are no other planets in the universe or any other galaxy that have life on so if there is aliens then were all screwed cause theres no heaven either
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I'm with calvesy on that one.
From John Betjeman, a personal favourite:
"Stony seaboard fair and foreign
Stony hills poured over space
Stony outcrop of the Burren
Stones on every fertile place.
Little fields with boulders dotted,
Grey-stone shoulders saffron spotted,
Stone-walled cabins thatched with reeds,
Where a stone age people breeds
The last of Europe's stone age race."
I doubt anyone will even read this answer but if you consider it, the bible also denouts the existance of Dinosaurs. So why is it that you can visit a history museum and see dinosaur bones. And why is it that we have near perfect evidence that human beings are no more than an advanced form of apes and are not segregated from animals as religion (which I personally hate!) suggests. It's my belief that religion (christianity) was a sort of old fashioned law system which was used to scare people into behaving well. The presence of the lord and the teachings of the bible offered an explanation for the world around and the things that could not be explained (e.g. natural disasters). The ten commandments give a good example of this, e.g. you must obey these rules (laws) or you will go to hell. Live by them, however; and you will go to Heaven and have the time of your life...Yeah...But people would have been more gullable back then as there was so much that they could not explain. The annoying truth is is that there could be no heaven really. If memories and personality are stored in the brain then when you die these memories cannot be taken with you, so unless heaven is just full of empty lifeless souls? Who knows. But I don't really beleive in that, if you've seen the film 'ghost' my beleif is a 'little' more like that. Maybe when you die your soul leaves the body and flies off into a pregnant mothers child to begin a new life. If you can beleive in some of the stories in the bible, then I think you can understand that!
I am going to write this YET again, it may well be the last post to this thread, and never read - but I am fed up to the gills with being labelled 'brainwashed'. It is the standard and final desperate fling of people who are not just frustrated by the fact that there are people out there who are Christians, but in my view are also the sort of people if they had the ability would ban religion. It angers them, they don't understand it, they hate it, all that jazz. Let me assure you once again, all my beliefs have arisen through research and - something you 'scientific' guys will never understand - the pull of the heart.
I resent and am offended by your use of the word 'brainwashed'. It represents only your own anger and arrogance. Thank god (our one) you weren't around in Europe in the 1930s. Little difficulty deciding which party you would have joined !
See you all on the next pertinent thread.
The psychology behind it is pretty robust. Let's not forget, the very idea of brainwashing means that the brainwashed are not going to feel that they have been. There may be the odd chink of light entering the darkness, saying "wait a minute, this is actually bs" but the brainwashed bit tries to mute it, saying "it's the pull of the heart, it does make sense."
How many religions, especially the xtian one, build up the whole thing by subscribing to people's reason? Nope. They target the vulnerable, especially the bereaved, alcoholics, drug addicts, the sick. Once the mind is infected by the bad meme, so hard to tunnel out.
MargeB, I never thought I would read such total xollob from you of all people. You just have to cope with the fact that intelligent, thinking, reasoning people have Christian belief and faith. Now you tell me I am so brainwashed that I don't even know it !! Man, your arrogance is stupefying. And you season your dripping sarcasm with casual stupidities like 'Nope' - as if to say 'this guy is so stupid that I hardly need lower my mind even to answer him'. Wake up man, you have got to accept that people like me exist, will not be going to gas chambers, and will debate the toss with you until the cows come home. You KNOW you are right, we BELIEVE we are - but who has (honestly) the greater comfort and confidence ?
How many sciences build up credibility by subscribing to peoples reason ?
MargeB, for a reasonably intelligent fellow, your last paragraph is just not coherent. You conveniently overlook the thousands, dare I say, millions of scientists of every stripe, every discipline, that have looked at the evidence in much more depth and breadth than you or I ever could and have come to the conclusion the evidence supports the Christian belief. Intellectual honesty requires that you not retreat into name calling. Matter of fact, I know few if any believers similar to the ones you describe. Be your diffinition, you could be the one brainwashed. I usually respect your opinion, and read your comments with appropriate consideration, but it's always the atheist that begins the derision. You know full well that the refutation from me and other cogent, inquiring Christians, usually matches your arguments point for point, without resorting to down putting of your right to believe, however you will. Please, it adds nothing to the exchange to be so derisive. As I see it, we just come from different persepectives, nes pas?
ok, careful, we got georgi here as a francophone ready to slap you for that one.
I quite agree, no need for name calling, I have affection for you guys (watch out) and learn more from you than you know, but in my defence the point raised before me was a psychological one.
Despite having seen it mentioned on many websites, I basically reject the 'there are so many believing professors out there' argument out of hand. There are so many informed intelligent people on either side of the debate. The actual gulf between the ideas cannot be understated. It's not different interpretations of the same science: it's completely different standpoints on human epistemology.
Show me two hundred professors who are believing christians, and I'll show you two hundred professors who think they are talking rubbish. The psychology foundations of the idea that greater academic merit or intellect immunizes against 'brainwashing' are simply very weak. As humans, our mental coding is to exist, not to know, and biases (e.g. 'believe without knowing') have to be understood and overcome if one is truly to see past them.
Standing up to the likes of Christianity and saying it as you really see it is lonely work, but I really do think it has to be done. We're in this sorry state because some of our forefathers shrank from the task.
If it wasn't for a few brave Enlightenment philosophers and their followers, we'd still be reading Aquinas amidst the blurry smoke of the imperialist church.
Probably, this entire discussion would make for another thread, but, MargeB, you put lots of words together that really don't mean much. You say "I basically reject...."... you may reject all you wish, but fact is there are thousands of educated, credentialed researchers, educators, professors and the like that see no difficulty with science and their faith. You can't just wave your hand and make them disappear, nor is it logical to believe they are all brainwashed. (Does the name Antony Flew ring a bell?) But then you contradict yourself by saying "there are many informed, intelligent people on either side of the debate" which way is it? "...I'll show you two hundred professors that think they are talking rubbish..." Haven't got a clue what you're talking about there unless you mean they are insincere...
"As humans our mental coding is to exist, not to know..." come on... that's not you're idea... you've been brainwashed by Dalkins, et al... One of the very things that sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom is our innate need to know...
"We're in this sorry state because..." What sorry state? You mean the sorry state of almost all hospitals, most relief societies, most financial support of charitable work, etc., coming from the Christian community? I haven't seen one, not one atheist relief society anywhere in the world. Another fact is that most Universities, especially here in the U.S. were started by church denominations. They actively and finacially supported higher education and investigation.
To point only to the failures of some church people (and there have been many) is the same red herring as pointing out that some athletes use drugs... a failure of the participants is not the same as a failure of the foundations upon which it is built...
No, you missed my point. I was not arguing that there are intelligent professors on the atheist side also, I was rejecting the premise you assume, as do a great many xtian websites, that intelligence or research protects you from swallowing nonsense in the name of religion. Look at it this way, and anyone with a shred of honest will accept this: out of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism, even if one of them is right, the others are therefore spectacularly wrong, and you have some of the 'finest minds in the finest institutions' devoting their entire lives to complete kack.
I have not been brainwashed by Dalkins (sic), I have studied at great length the psychology literature of the 60's til now concerning Social Influence.
It appears that you make so many unfounded and mistaken assumptions about even the nature of knowledge, that contradicts the overwhelming consensus of modern psychological thought as to render any epistemological debate about as useful as the Pope's willy.
doubt_I_know - you really should do a little research before condemning something you don't understand! Where does the Bible even suggest there were no dinosaurs?
"And why is it that we have near perfect evidence that human beings are no more than an advanced form of apes.... " the fact that this debate has gone on for so long would suggest that the evidence is far from perfect!
"[religion]..which I personally hate!" Why? If you're just an upgraded ape, why does it even bother you at all what the other upgraded apes think!
"The ten commandments give a good example of this, e.g. you must obey these rules (laws) or you will go to hell. Live by them, however; and you will go to Heaven and have the time of your life.." There is no mention of either heaven or hell anywhere close to the so-called "Ten Commandments" - check it out!
MargeB - "Let's not forget, the very idea of brainwashing means that the brainwashed are not going to feel that they have been" - so will you at least concede that if you have been brainwashed into believeing in evolution, you will not feel that you have been?
"They target the vulnerable, especially the bereaved, alcoholics, drug addicts, the sick". I'm not suggesting that qualifications alone make a person intelligent, nor do I say this as some stupid boast to somehow make myself look more credible, but I'm not bereaved, I'm not an alcoholic, or a drug addict, or sick - I got a distinction in my MSc, and would consider myself to be of reasonable intelligence. It's a shame you have to treat people who don't agree with you as though they were morons"!
"I have affection for you guys..." WHAT! A few posts ago, it was "I detest religious fundamentalism"! :-)
"Despite having seen it mentioned on many websites, I basically reject the 'there are so many believing professors out there' argument out of hand." I agree entirely that having hundreds or thousands of beleiving professors doesn't prove a thing! The point I think, was simply that you cannot simply lump Christians together and right them off as brainwashed, unintelligent fools.
"The actual gulf between the ideas cannot be understated. It's not different interpretations of the same science: it's completely different standpoints on human epistemology." To some extent this may be true, but I doubt that it is possible to study anything scientifically without making some presuppositions. At a basic level, we are making different interpretations of the same evidence to test conflicting presuppositions . Isn't that how scientific knowledge is gained?
MargeB - "Standing up to the likes of Christianity and saying it as you really see it is lonely work, but I really do think it has to be done" Why? What difference would it make if it wasn't done? What teaching of Christ for example, if followed would make the world a worse place? And if it is harmless, what drives you to carry out your "lonely work"?
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