Are we (UK) a decadent society ?

[derekpara]

Whilst in Holland last week, quietly watching the world go by, this question jumped out at me because of the great contrasts between the Dutch way of life and ours.A disciplined and orderly society, no 'hoodies', the yobs don't control the streets (didn't see any yobs), no girls bloated by binge drinking, and no brawling, spewing young drunkards. Just slim young people enjoying the simple and healthy pleasures of life. Cycling quite long distances ( yes, I know it's flat), supporting youth activities such as the Scout Movement until late teens, middle-aged people cycling in groups  as a social pastime, families out walking together along peaceful streets.. Yes, the strong, stable family. is, I think, the key to this whole question. All this despite Holland's liberal attitude to drugs - and I saw no evidence of social breakdown because of this policy. I have been to the the Netherlands many times but the contrast on this last occasion was really striking. Does anyone else have a view on this based on their experiences abroad ?.

[BossyBoots]

I spent one Christmas with family in Germany.  On 23rd December (technically their Xmas Eve as they open pressies on our Xmas Eve) I was in Hamburg around 4pm and was amazed that hardly anyone was carrying massive shopping bags full of toys, etc.  The only thing they appeared to be carrying was rolls of wrapping paper.  When pressie time came the next day I was astounded by how simple the presents were, okay there was one big one but that really was it.  Here in UK it is mayhem at Xmas, in fact I wholly endorse the whole internet shopping experience at Chrimbo. 

[shaneystar]

I am always really happy to spend Christmas with family in Germany rather than here.Everything shuts down at midday on Christmas Eve and that's it.People don't go to the pub they stay home and have a family Christmas.It's much more religous than here too and the churches are usually full.Depending on when Christmas day falls they are back to work on what we call Boxing Day.I have also lived in Holland for several years.The Dutch on the whole are a staid sober sort of people especially in the smaller towns and villages and again quite religous folk.I think people on the continent tend to hold the family as a unit close to their hearts.

[Peter Pedant]

Having worked in Holland, there are other bits too. The Amsterdam cafe you were sitting in, obviously didnt have a pot-plant leaf outside - or perhaps it did to give you such a rosy view of life. Did the cafe look out over the homomonument - a symbol of famiily life?

perhaps someone slipped into one of the grachten - and the Dutch lined up to watch him drown, each one thinking that the others had called the riverboats. That caused national heart searching when I was there.

No-one mentioned the problems with provos in the sixties - these were particularly lawless drunken teenagers which plagued Holland.

Manchester's better.

[Dark Angel]

I don't know about being decadent, but there does seem to be a large number of British people who are rather impatient and intolerant, more than other countries. I noticed this where I worked, and in some public places like shops.. And the British are not blatantly rude in general, it is mostly in the tone of voice, the innuendoes, the snide remarks, cold looks etc. And of course, the back stabbing...

Dont get me wrong, most people on this site sound really nice, but I came accross British people who were really nice to your face but then I hear them slandering others most unsavorily behind their backs - not one good word for anybody - It could be down to the family backgrounds...There were some lovely British people that I met as well, so you cannot generalise. 

[netibiza]

I must say that whenever I come over to England I find everyone so very nice, chatty and helpful.  Shop workers are particularly helpful.  But when reading the papers I find England terrifying.  I think it's a lot to do with respecting elders and parents.  Something seems to have gone awry.  But I never have a problem when over.  Teenagers also seem very nice and helpful.

[hellywellywo]

this is not really an answer but more of an observation, but in germany more often than not children and parents live and look after grandparents and in some cases great grandparents.  So I wonder if because of this there is a greater respect and value placed on people.  Again the strong family link.  I don't really know where I am going with this  so please help me out.

[Dom Tuk]

Glad you asked this question. I find this the case whenever i go out of teh country and there are large numbers of brits there...like for eg on summer holidays in sun and sand places. I cringe to see our tattooed, loud, unintelligent chavs that pass off for tourists from the UK, the ones who oreder fish and chips and go back to the same resort every year and drink beer with their meals and watch football and do karoke (i must stop now) and when i compare them with the polite, healthy, respectful, intelligent locals...i realise that we are going backwards while the rest of the world is progressing.

[derekpara]

Thank you all, especially hellywellywo and Dom Tuk. Peter Pedant you haven't answered the question - which I think is a serious one, and my snapshot of Holland ( and it was only a week's observation this time) was last week - not forty years ago ! Things have changed a lot in the UK since then. I cite massive levels of teenage pregnancy and abortion, binge drinking, very high divorce rates etc. In my last years in teaching at a secondary school only about four out of over thirty had the same surname as their 'parents.'  Some children had eight or twelve grandparents !  What about parents letting their twelve year old daughters dress up like tarts ? These are the things I compare with countries like Holland.  No, I'm not a prude; just someone who fears for the future of the country I love.

[holdenphil]

Britain still seems to me to be divided very much along class lines, or more clearly haves and have nots, particularly with regard to education. When 2 Brits meet they still often judge each other on accents which is stupidly reductive. The tone of voice, innuendos, snide remarks and cold looks (dark angel) are a manifestation of this class divide. Our "tattoed loud unintelligent chavs that pass off for tourists" are just fulfilling the role given to them by the other half, aren't they? (they're all Northerners aren't they?) so pointless complaining about that until something is done to rectify it.

I've lived in Japan for 5 years now　and am amazed at the difference in peoples behaviour. Japan, unlike Britain is relatively equal on class lines. I'm not saying it's perfect but some of the differences in society i do feel stem from this. There's a complete absence of aggression and egotism in the air when you go out for a drink and you can walk home down the unlit streets without any fear at all. I once missed my train home from Tokyo and slept on a bench with hundreds of others around me (it's a crowded place!) in the same boat. No trouble at all. I even buy my vegetables at a shop where there is no assistant, you just put your money in a box and take your food. I really couldn't hack being threatened for "looking at someone the wrong way" again.

[monodge]

i lived in France for a year and i found a huge difference in the way of life that over there compared to over here ( Ireland).like in holland, the family seemed to be a valuable unit in society and drink, abortion , divorce and teenage pregnacies didnt seem to be as much of an issue as at home.i never saw a French teenager who could have been accused of having drunk themselves into oblivion, sporting a mini skirt and low cut top while pushing a buggy.the same couldnt be said of our teenagers in Ireland.

i do think the europeans seem to have a much healthier attitude to life and seem to have their priorities straight but i did very much miss "havin' the craic" and heading out for a few drinks, getting hammered and kissing some random boy!Perhaps a poor reflection on myself but i am only 22 and certainly dont plan on getting preggers, drinking to the point of liver damage or going out wearing half -nothing.i think the europeans can take themselves too seriuosly a lot of the time.

[flaming]

There is the fragmentation of families. There is the gap between rich and poor - wider now than it has been in my lifetime - worse in a way because their are so many wonderful gizmos on offer.  There once were many unskilled and semi-skilled jobs for boys and girls to go to.  Drugs and alcohol have filled the space, which means more crime by non-earners to get the money to pay for same.  The brighter ones have beeen "got rid of" by the Government into higher education, thus young men and women are in a prolonged 'no responsibility' zone, quickly getting used to binge drinking and doing what they like away from home.  The more that the monied ones - I can't say it's just a question of class - buy their way out of the bad areas the worse thosein some areas haven't much chance of growing into interested and interesting adults.  Car-ownership has played a big part.  There used to be many more people walking about on the street at all times.  Young working people didn't have cars as a matter of course, and certainly didn't drive everywhere. Because of this anonymity there is no shame about behaviour - as there once was - amongst a group of local residents. There are suburbs where one could think there are no troubles at all,  families still living a decent life but they have tended to isolate themselves and hope it all goes away.  Social Science teaching from the 70s/80s onwards produced a wadge of  graduates with wonky ideas about society - teaching much about rights, not much about responsibility;  their legacy is now to be seen.   Parents  want to be friends with their children, rather than mentors who sometimes must be unpopular.  Blair's 'respect'  idea is at least 10 years or so too late.  Perhaps Dutch parents and teachers know when to say no to children as they grow?

[Ouisch]

I have nothing scientific to add to this discussion, just my own observations on my three visits to the Netherlands... I did notice the proliferation of bicycles, which easily outnumbered those in the US, but I think a part of that is because of the huge percentage of cars on our roads (and perhaps the same might apply to the UK).  We do have bicycle lanes and such on our roads, but automobiles are the norm, and destinations are so spread out, it's sometimes impossible to commute by bike.

That said, while visiting Holland, I found some of the friendliest people in all of Europe.  I recall ordering dinner at a restaurant by pointing at the pictures on the menu, because the server didn't speak English, and I didn't speak Dutch.  While awaiting my food, I set my nightly medication on the table, next to the beer I'd ordered.  The server rushed over to me and set down a glass of water, and then gestured towards my pills.  Call me goofy, but that gesture just really touched me... 

[undercovers]

do you not think that maybe the fact that you are on holiday has tinted your view of holland (for example) - the netherlands also has its fair share of shameful individuals like anywhere else. think hate crime, age of consent issues etc. I think you'll find people the world over are quite similar its just how stories are reported or what our stereotyping tells us about people

[Cristo]

I think we are a decadent society !! And why not ?  We have lost the family as it used to be, we have replaced it with social activities, not all healthy ones. My biggest fear is not the boozing and short skirts but the number of obese families about and the devaluation of the adult male as an important part of our society. Look at the TV ads and its nearly always the adult male, usually white, who is the buffoon. Just watch please ! Been to France,Holland,Germany and several other European countries as well as the good old USA. Give me the yanks anytime, what a nice people. They dont pretend not to speak english. I secretly like the Germans but only because i think,deep down, we are cut from the same cloth. Good question

[bekvdbos]

i am half dutch and half english, i have lived in both places and i have to say there are a lot of differences, the dutch certainly have a very different attitude to excesses of every kind, this is down to an infact very conservative society, on the back of which are quite negative attitudes, racism being the most obvious.

to be honest though, i think a big problem is the way the media operates in the UK, really you shouldnt believe everything/anything you read!

[derekpara]

Thank you BekV. Better late than never !