koran

[Sky]

in another post i read someone claim that the koran says that "all non-believers must be killed". any truth to this whatsoever? i need to get around to reading this book at some point as it seems to be the basis of many contentious issues these days.

[spacechimp]

I think that the bible also says that non-believers must be killed or converted. This was certainly the basis of the crusades.

[spacechimp]

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if the Koran did say this.

[spacechimp]

I think the Koran may simply say that non-believers will be tortured in hell.

[spacechimp]

Aha, "Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.)" 2:191-2

[Mudman]

There's a damn good point! You ever heard of a "non-believer" blowing themselves up or executing people who "believe"? Tricky issue, this religion.

[Lonnie]

If tali is around, he/she is Muslim, and maybe you'll get an answer, but in the sayings of Mohamed, and I don't for a minute believe that he said it, it says, 'on the day of judgement, all the trees and rocks will shout, there's a Jew behind me, come and kill him'.

spacechimp, i'm not Christian, but i've read the Bible, can you tell me where it says that?.

[spacechimp]

I said I think. Christianity has more of a "believe or burn in hell" message than Islam.

[spacechimp]

"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed." This could be interpreted as kill those who do not believe in God.

[Lonnie]

The word interpret is the key.

[patc7641]

The Koran and the Bible are both works of fiction. I used to read Tarzan books as a child but not once did I get the urge to swing from the trees.

[SarCaustic]

Islam does not advocate the murder of non-believers. In fact, the Prophet was known for his kindness and justice towards the the non-muslims. The Hadith (records of the Prophet's actions and speech) report that the prophet even allowed Christians and Hindus to pray in the mosque - even though Islam prohibits idolatry. Some would say that according to Islam all non-believers go to hell but generally it is believed that Allah forgives whomsoever he wishes.

Lines from the Qur'an are often misquoted, taken out of context or sometimes the "quotes" aren't even real. Here's the translation of 2:191 - 2:

"2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful. "

Stupid interpretation = Islam says all non-muslims should be killed
If you look a little deeper: Islam sanctions retribution against oppressors. "This is the just retribution for those disbelievers." Keyword: "those" (demonstrative pronoun used to indicate somebody or something that is understood by all parties involved in communication), here it refers to the people who wage war against the muslims.

Conclusion: Islam IS a peaceful but not pacifistic religion.

[spacechimp]

Goody, I heard that in Catholic conquered Spain, many of the native Spaniards continued to practice Islam in secret - hence the Spanish inquisition.

[spacechimp]

It's a shame all of these crackpots go on the TV saying "death to Jews and Christians" though really, isn't it?

[SarCaustic]

I agree, but just because is someone is muslim (or Hindu, Christian, Jew or whatever) it doesn't mean that everything they say represents their religiion. People should know better than to judge.

[mr_pointment]

all who believe in tarzan or tesco shall lead a life in the afterworld,who should holdeth my hand?5:365-666

load of bunk

asdaeth all we live by free spirits the golden card of vouch willeth deem thee the charitable cheapeth foods of (beegees)staying alive staying alive ahh ahh ahh ahh staying aliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiivvvvvve

who wrote the bible?

[SteveD]

Could not a lot of this be due to the way the Bible and the Qu'ran have been translated into English?

How do the English language versions compare with direct translations (i.e. not via English) into other languages?

[Lonnie]

As I said earlier, its all down to interpretation.

[SarCaustic]

SteveD - you raise a good point with regards to translations. The Qur'an was written over 1400 years ago in arabic that is not spoken today. With all different languages there are words, phrases and ideas that do not translate well into English - add to that the age of the text and you have some comprehension of the accuracy of modern translations. Therefore, the majority scholar ruling is that the Qur'an should not be studied in its translated from by individuals, instead they should seek the interpretation of a scholar who has studied 7th century arabic and Qur'anic texts in detail.

[SarCaustic]

I think the case is a little murkier with the Bible as it has undergone thousands of translations and edits (most notably the earliest ones that are alleged to have omitted accounts portraying women favourably).

[Sky]

yeah, i have heard that a lot may be lost in translation, and as a language student (who has specialised in translation) i am certainly aware of the issues that can arise. however, i find it hard to believe that words such as "death to all non-believers" could be misconstrued. i'd be interested to know what the actual wording is in the koran (in arabic) and see the different ways it could be translated.

like i said, i should just get around to reading it myself, but has anyone found a different translation for this same phrase?