ChatterBank9 mins ago
Moral decline
89 Answers
First of all, apologies if this is not quite in the right category. I've been "lurking" on this site for quite some time now and find the argument/discussion between theist and atheist interesting and often quite amusing. I am a confirmed atheist, having walked out of C of E confirmation classes some fifty years ago, so I align myself with the "usual suspects" (I will admit to have a sneaking respect for some contributors who "appear" to have such an unshakeable faith in a collection of mistranslated fairy stories!).
My problem is that I am becoming increasingly concerned about the moral decline in our society and find myself wishing the established church would accept it's role and take more of a moral stand to help reverse some of the outrageous imbalance that just seems to be getting worse. This makes me feel a bit of a hypocrite, but in the absence of any other acceptable role models where else should we be looking? Probably not politicians!!
My problem is that I am becoming increasingly concerned about the moral decline in our society and find myself wishing the established church would accept it's role and take more of a moral stand to help reverse some of the outrageous imbalance that just seems to be getting worse. This makes me feel a bit of a hypocrite, but in the absence of any other acceptable role models where else should we be looking? Probably not politicians!!
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Many people hold a personal belief and faith, not picking and choosing from tracts in the Bible, not even by churchgoing, just a simple faith, which you are attacking. Your arrogance and ignorance is astounding. I haven't even bothered to read all your self important guff, because you have nothing new to say. Do not assume that you will ever convince anyone with faith to see your way of thinking.
Askyourgran, it's a silly attitude to enter into a debate and then not bother to read post that people of an opposing view put forth just because it annoys you that everyone doesn't agree with you. IF you bothered to read my post you would notice that I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything, I don't care that you don't think like me or not, I was however just trying, granted slightly more gently than a few posters on here, to point out your arrogance and ignorance on a few topics. Wish I hadn't bothered with the gentle bit now since you seem to be revelling in your arrogance and ignorance as though it's a good thing.
I'm just really really glad that my kids have not been influenced by anyone with twisted ideas of right, wrong and good manners like yours.
I'm just really really glad that my kids have not been influenced by anyone with twisted ideas of right, wrong and good manners like yours.
Gran, you might not read this, but nevertheless I will write it. I would like you to understand that I view AB as a discussion board only, it is never my intention to 'fall out' with anyone on a personal level, and my claims relating to the lie that is religion can be easily verified by anyone who wishes to seek the truth. I'm not making it up - or believing it because I want to believe it - I say what I say because I have no alternative. The evidence is there before us all.
It's not arrogant to admit that I don't know if a God exists, and I do actually believe that man possesses an innate sense of spirituality, but it takes relatively little research to discover that the stories surrounding the God of Abraham are contradictory, and that he certainly wasn't the perfect, loving, entity that religion claims him to be.
I understand what you say when you talk about 'simple faith', but unfortunately if that 'simple faith' is applied to the God of the Bible, rather than to a potential universal, impersonal, spirit, it falls at the first hurdle. The Christmas story, albeit ambiguous and highly debateable, is sweet, but then we come to Easter when your God (who we must remember can do anything he wants to do - allegedly) demands an unspeakable blood sacrifice in exchange for forgiveness - and we're told if we don't accept that, we are doomed to eternal damnation. 'Simple faith'? I don't think so. Now if someone like you, who claims to be a Christian (a claim which is, incidentally, at odds with not only your anger, but also with your penchant for taking pleasure in another's discomfort) objects to me highlighting the obvious errors and the appalling cruelty, separation, and hatred, that organised religion necessarily brings with it, there's nothing I can do about that. The most important thing in this world is that we love not an idea - but rather that we love each other - but that's just my opinion. x
It's not arrogant to admit that I don't know if a God exists, and I do actually believe that man possesses an innate sense of spirituality, but it takes relatively little research to discover that the stories surrounding the God of Abraham are contradictory, and that he certainly wasn't the perfect, loving, entity that religion claims him to be.
I understand what you say when you talk about 'simple faith', but unfortunately if that 'simple faith' is applied to the God of the Bible, rather than to a potential universal, impersonal, spirit, it falls at the first hurdle. The Christmas story, albeit ambiguous and highly debateable, is sweet, but then we come to Easter when your God (who we must remember can do anything he wants to do - allegedly) demands an unspeakable blood sacrifice in exchange for forgiveness - and we're told if we don't accept that, we are doomed to eternal damnation. 'Simple faith'? I don't think so. Now if someone like you, who claims to be a Christian (a claim which is, incidentally, at odds with not only your anger, but also with your penchant for taking pleasure in another's discomfort) objects to me highlighting the obvious errors and the appalling cruelty, separation, and hatred, that organised religion necessarily brings with it, there's nothing I can do about that. The most important thing in this world is that we love not an idea - but rather that we love each other - but that's just my opinion. x
naomi ..........”believe that man possesses an innate sense of spirituality”
where How, then, is true spirituality achieved? Though just about every religion claims to know the path to spirituality, the directions given are about as numerous as the religions themselves. A Protestant claims to be saved at a revival meeting. A Catholic seeks communion with God at Mass. A Buddhist pursues enlightenment through meditation. A Hindu strives for release from the cycle of rebirths through self-denial. Are all of these on the path to true spirituality? Are any?
For many, the answer to those questions is no. They hold that spirituality means to “believe without belonging,” that is, to believe in a god or a deity without belonging to a church. Others feel that spirituality refers, not to a religious experience, but to a desire for inner peace and for meaning in life. They assert that those seeking spirituality need not look to religion at all. Rather, they need only to look inwardly, to their innermost feelings. One writer says: “True spirituality is something that is found deep within oneself. It is your way of loving, accepting and relating to the world and people around you. It cannot be found in a church or by believing in a certain way.”
Clearly, people differ greatly in their ideas about spirituality. Thousands of books claim to show the way to a spiritual life, yet all too often readers are left feeling unfulfilled and confused. There is one book, however, that does contain reliable guidance on spiritual matters. It is the book that shows evidence of being inspired of God. (2 Timothy 3:16)
where How, then, is true spirituality achieved? Though just about every religion claims to know the path to spirituality, the directions given are about as numerous as the religions themselves. A Protestant claims to be saved at a revival meeting. A Catholic seeks communion with God at Mass. A Buddhist pursues enlightenment through meditation. A Hindu strives for release from the cycle of rebirths through self-denial. Are all of these on the path to true spirituality? Are any?
For many, the answer to those questions is no. They hold that spirituality means to “believe without belonging,” that is, to believe in a god or a deity without belonging to a church. Others feel that spirituality refers, not to a religious experience, but to a desire for inner peace and for meaning in life. They assert that those seeking spirituality need not look to religion at all. Rather, they need only to look inwardly, to their innermost feelings. One writer says: “True spirituality is something that is found deep within oneself. It is your way of loving, accepting and relating to the world and people around you. It cannot be found in a church or by believing in a certain way.”
Clearly, people differ greatly in their ideas about spirituality. Thousands of books claim to show the way to a spiritual life, yet all too often readers are left feeling unfulfilled and confused. There is one book, however, that does contain reliable guidance on spiritual matters. It is the book that shows evidence of being inspired of God. (2 Timothy 3:16)
I am still not sure why I should be expected to automatically offer respect to "simple faith". Why should religious faith get a free pass when it impacts upon our society as it does? And why do the religious automatically assume they have the moral high ground?
No, it doesnt work like that. Whilst religious faith intrudes into society in what are often violent and murderous ways, it gets no automatic deference from me. Doctors murdered by christian fundamentalists for performing abortions. Plays and films boycotted or censored because we are afraid to offend the religious sensibilities of the minority. Patriarchal or mysogynistic attitudes carried over into subsequent generations by the faithful. Anti- scientific and illogical irrational thinking enshrined by faith. Child abuse allowed to carry on unchecked because of covers ups in the church, and the position of unthinking respect and authority a priest gets within a community. Divisiveness and a continual failure to see the brotherhood of mankind, but rather the xenophobia of tribes.
And you want your faith to be afforded respect? I dont think so.............
No, it doesnt work like that. Whilst religious faith intrudes into society in what are often violent and murderous ways, it gets no automatic deference from me. Doctors murdered by christian fundamentalists for performing abortions. Plays and films boycotted or censored because we are afraid to offend the religious sensibilities of the minority. Patriarchal or mysogynistic attitudes carried over into subsequent generations by the faithful. Anti- scientific and illogical irrational thinking enshrined by faith. Child abuse allowed to carry on unchecked because of covers ups in the church, and the position of unthinking respect and authority a priest gets within a community. Divisiveness and a continual failure to see the brotherhood of mankind, but rather the xenophobia of tribes.
And you want your faith to be afforded respect? I dont think so.............
lazygun .... Giving you the benefit of the doubt, you may believe you are speaking clearly - communicating your message, as it were. And what about the past years since World War II ended? Have we seen any reversal in the faith-destroying sermons from Christendom’s pulpits? To the contrary! Openly and freely the clergy deny belief in the Bible’s inspiration. The Garden of Eden and the events of the Noachian flood, they say, are folklore. The virgin birth of Jesus and the ransom sacrifice of Christ to them are mere myths. Many clergymen, like the proverbial fool, parrot that “there is no God” for ‘he is dead.’ (Ps. 14:1) so what are they atheist, could be?
How true the words of Jesus: “Blind guides is what they are.” “If, then “a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” (Matt. 15:14)
How true the words of Jesus: “Blind guides is what they are.” “If, then “a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” (Matt. 15:14)
moral decline?
i can only suggest that you get yourself down to the library and get the biggest book of history of the last 1000 years or so - or even just the last 500 - and have a good long read of it ... it is FULL of terrible behaviour, atrocities and general features a pretty rotten society... and much of it is actually done in the NAME of the church - the very thing you believe is the only thing that can fix this society!!
where you get the idea that this society is somehow terrible compared to the 'old days', and that people are worse now, is beyond me...
i can only suggest that you get yourself down to the library and get the biggest book of history of the last 1000 years or so - or even just the last 500 - and have a good long read of it ... it is FULL of terrible behaviour, atrocities and general features a pretty rotten society... and much of it is actually done in the NAME of the church - the very thing you believe is the only thing that can fix this society!!
where you get the idea that this society is somehow terrible compared to the 'old days', and that people are worse now, is beyond me...
Elderman, //where How, then, is true spirituality achieved?//
Not from reading the bible. It's clear you haven't understood a word I've said - but nothing new there. If anyone is a blind man being led by blind men, it's you - but being blind, you can't see it.
LazyGun, I agree entirely. Contrary to their own belief the religious do not occupy the moral high ground, faith should not automatically command respect as the faithful expect it to, and religion has no right to demand it.
Not from reading the bible. It's clear you haven't understood a word I've said - but nothing new there. If anyone is a blind man being led by blind men, it's you - but being blind, you can't see it.
LazyGun, I agree entirely. Contrary to their own belief the religious do not occupy the moral high ground, faith should not automatically command respect as the faithful expect it to, and religion has no right to demand it.
there seems to be a few here who misunderstand what a moral code actually is.
it is not merely a set of religious rules that people obide by... the fact that the OP refers to it as 'christian morals' yet is an atheist is a perfect example.... he seems to think that only christians can have morals, because they invented morals...
just because christians have laid claim to this does not mean they 'own' it
it is like me writing a cook book... it does not then mean that i therefore invented cooking and all cooking should forever more refer to me, just because i wrote it all down and put my name on it...
christians did not invent morals or ethical and good behaviour... they merely claimed them as their own when they wrote it all down...
it is not merely a set of religious rules that people obide by... the fact that the OP refers to it as 'christian morals' yet is an atheist is a perfect example.... he seems to think that only christians can have morals, because they invented morals...
just because christians have laid claim to this does not mean they 'own' it
it is like me writing a cook book... it does not then mean that i therefore invented cooking and all cooking should forever more refer to me, just because i wrote it all down and put my name on it...
christians did not invent morals or ethical and good behaviour... they merely claimed them as their own when they wrote it all down...
-- answer removed --
The Bible, iits prequels and sequels all assert that women have a subordinate positon in society. Clearly a primitive concept that is easily shown to be nothing more than the ridiculous misogynistic attitudes that perveiled in the day.
Its persistence to the 21st centruy is evidence that these books and religion in general stand in the way of the development od sophisticated morality.
Its persistence to the 21st centruy is evidence that these books and religion in general stand in the way of the development od sophisticated morality.
Christians also claim that they own Easter and the festival they remnamed as Christmas in honour of their martyr. They didn't even bother to rename Easter (which is and has always been the spring fertility festival named from the same roots as the word "oestrus") yet claim it is the most holy of Christian festivals while they chastise those who continue to celebrate with eggs and rabbits (clearly symbols of fertility).
They claim that the celebration of same-sex marriage is an infringement on their religious rights as though they invented marriage, which clearly they didn't.
Their moralistic attitudes to sexuality are ridiculous for insisting that only their way of thinking is morally acceptable. They insist marriage is the only acceptable way to be in a relationship with another person and vilify those who choose any other option.
Personally I believe that marrying someone you have never had sex with is an insult to the institution of marriage.
Religion is about bigotry and mindless prejudice. Faith does not deserve our respect but our distain for the mindless ignorance that it is.
They claim that the celebration of same-sex marriage is an infringement on their religious rights as though they invented marriage, which clearly they didn't.
Their moralistic attitudes to sexuality are ridiculous for insisting that only their way of thinking is morally acceptable. They insist marriage is the only acceptable way to be in a relationship with another person and vilify those who choose any other option.
Personally I believe that marrying someone you have never had sex with is an insult to the institution of marriage.
Religion is about bigotry and mindless prejudice. Faith does not deserve our respect but our distain for the mindless ignorance that it is.
In fact, the rapid decline of religion has become a common topic of discussion today. True,
At one time there were traditional values based on Biblical sources. But no more. Now they are pushed aside as no longer fashionable. New life-styles are in vogue. “Truth” is relative. There is no right or wrong anymore. No need to be judgmental. Each one has his own set of values, decides what is right for him, does his own thing. No-fault fornication. No-fault adultery. No-fault divorce. No-fault child neglect. And no blame for any of the consequences—the soaring teenage pregnancies, the millions of abortions, the ruined lives of children. And since there is no fault and no blame, there is no guilt. In these ways the world throws true values in the trash can.
The first human pair decided to determine for themselves what was right and what was wrong. (Genesis 2:17; 3:5) Today, millions have decided that there is no right and no wrong. Motivated by the wish to do as they please, they toss aside the traditional values and cry out: “Free at last! Anything goes!”
Of course, atheist, evolution has contributed to this moral breakdown in other ways: It has discouraged faith in God and the Bible. In turn, many persons have abandoned the Biblical moral code forbidding adultery and stealing. But is that not to be expected? For, according to evolutionary teaching, is not man really an animal?
At one time there were traditional values based on Biblical sources. But no more. Now they are pushed aside as no longer fashionable. New life-styles are in vogue. “Truth” is relative. There is no right or wrong anymore. No need to be judgmental. Each one has his own set of values, decides what is right for him, does his own thing. No-fault fornication. No-fault adultery. No-fault divorce. No-fault child neglect. And no blame for any of the consequences—the soaring teenage pregnancies, the millions of abortions, the ruined lives of children. And since there is no fault and no blame, there is no guilt. In these ways the world throws true values in the trash can.
The first human pair decided to determine for themselves what was right and what was wrong. (Genesis 2:17; 3:5) Today, millions have decided that there is no right and no wrong. Motivated by the wish to do as they please, they toss aside the traditional values and cry out: “Free at last! Anything goes!”
Of course, atheist, evolution has contributed to this moral breakdown in other ways: It has discouraged faith in God and the Bible. In turn, many persons have abandoned the Biblical moral code forbidding adultery and stealing. But is that not to be expected? For, according to evolutionary teaching, is not man really an animal?
does anyone else just think bill and ben the flowerpot men - and hear "flobbadob blib blob bleeb", whenever elderman posts?
sorry but i just cannot read them...
Elderman... if you want people to listen and take any notice whatsoever of anything you say, you must try to write in a way that people can digest easily... like a human being ... this stuffy, pompous copying and pasting of random texts just makes people switch off.
even you must tire of being ridiculed and ignored...even though you seem impervious to it... unless you try to make some sense you are just wasting your time.
sorry but i just cannot read them...
Elderman... if you want people to listen and take any notice whatsoever of anything you say, you must try to write in a way that people can digest easily... like a human being ... this stuffy, pompous copying and pasting of random texts just makes people switch off.
even you must tire of being ridiculed and ignored...even though you seem impervious to it... unless you try to make some sense you are just wasting your time.
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