Would you like to see the return of Grammar Schools?

[naomi24]

As an ex-Grammar School girl, I've just watched with great interest a programme on the demise of Grammar Schools and the loss of opportunity that resulted in for bright working class children.

Quote from Edwina Curry who came from a working class background but won a scholarship to a Grammar School and subsequently went on to Cambridge -

'I may be a Tory but I'm a Scouse Tory, and to have a country where only money buys a good education is deeply, deeply wrong'.

Your thoughts?

[maggiebee]

No grammar schools in Scotland. Passed your 11+ you went to an Academy - failed it you went to a Junior Secondary. If you did well at Junior Secondary for your first 3 years you could move to an Academy for 'O' levels and Highers.
Nowadays, your secondary school education is determined by school catchment areas - you could be lucky or not depending on where you stay.

[LazyGun]

It comes down to whether you believe in selection at age 11, and the implied elitism that Grammar schools carried.

It was certainly an early age to have your future so fundamentally affected.I think, broadly speaking, the favouring of comprehensives and the phasing out of grammar schools helped to educate more children from disadvantaged backgrounds,therefore giving them greater life opportunities than they would have had under the previous system.

However, as I get older, I do tend to find myself lamenting the state of education today,especially the reduction in academic standards encouraged exam boards looking to make money. Not sure what the answer is - I am not sure that Academies and Free Schools are the right direction :)

[jomifl]

When I was at a grammar school one of our teachers told us that 10% of children went to grammar school.
One of the big advantages of grammar school was that the peer group environment was much more conducive to study (and passing exams). The careers advice however was rubbish.

[sandyRoe]

Parents here, who have the money, can pay for private tuition to help their children cope with the entrance exam. So a less able middle class child could deny a place to a brighter poor child. Hardly a level playing field.

[naomi24]

That's the whole point Sandy. Read Edwina Currie's comment.

[Jonathan-Joe]

Sandy, I don't how many lived in "hovels" but many boys at my grammar school were from working class families. What else would you expect for a school in inner London, in the 60s?
Naomi, I think the programme said that 25% of all children attended grammar school.
Incidentally, this programme was the second of two, part one last week looked at the period before WW2 when many grammar schools took only fee-paying or scholarsship pupils.

[HowardKennitby]

The problem with comprehensive education is that it suffers from the inevitable problems of the 'one size fits all' view of life. I am sure most of us here now understand that actually means 'one size fits nobody'.
Until that can be resolved comprehensive education will fail everybody.

[naomi24]

Jonathan, I said it was 25% - I thought that was right. I didn't realise it was a two-parter. I just happened across it tonight.

Howard, I couldn't agree more.

[jomifl]

Accodring to my wife, an ex teacher a lot of comprehensive schools are just state sponsored child minding.

[LazyGun]

@Howard - I understand what your statement implies, but I think you are somewhat overstating the lowest common denominator element, unless you think that all children coming through the comprehensive system thats been in place over the last few decades have all been failed.

As to Grammar schools - from a UK Parliamentary report looking at a snapshot of markers in 2008, less than 2% of their intake were of children eligible for free school meals, a commonly acknowledged marker for deprivation, whereas comprehensive school intake was around 11%. Children requiring Special Educational Needs were also similarly disparate - 4% at Grammar Schools,and around 20% or so at comprehensives.

[HowardKennitby]

LG

I would think that in most cases all of them have been failed.
If a teacher is presented with a class of 30-35 pupils with IQ range 90-140 and devotes equal time to each then I believe that teacher will fail all of them.

[LazyGun]

Percentages quoted in last comment of mine were taken from a House of Commons Report, if you are interested. link takes you to a pdf article.

http://www.google.com...4hf7oJHIPafikTqy6wKJA

[Jonathan-Joe]

In 1947, 32% of secondary pupils attended grammar school in the London County Council area
31,128 pupils in grammar scchools
65,134 pupils in other schools
source http://www.archive.or...ationcommitt032441mbp

[New Judge]

The demonisation of grammar schools was not the fault of the grammar schools. It was the failure of the secondary modern and technical schools which let down the children who were not academically inclined, but who still needed and deserved a decent education.

Primary education is designed to teach children to read, write and add up. Secondary education is designed to build on the differing strengths of children. There is no way that a single secondary education system can cope adequately with those differences and this has been adequately demonstrated over the last 30 years.

Edwina Currie is exactly right - the only way to guarantee a decent academic education for academically gifted children is either to pay for it or to be lucky enough to live in an area which still has grammar schools. The comprehensive schooling system has let down two generations of children.

[craft1948]

I went to a grammar school and you wouldn't find many family's poorer than mine (although it's not a competition). I received a much better education than my sister who went to the local secondary modern, although she benefited in later life through the adult education scheme.
My brother also went to grammar school, and yes, he did qualify for free school dinners.

[SueMoneyRowley]

I attended an excellent grammar school when I passed my 11 plus, but my friends who didn't pass went to an equally good secondary modern school. I completed my education in a comprehensive school, and did quite well there. I went on to be a teacher. In retrospect I suspect I would have achieved more academically had I stayed at the grammar school, but I really enjoyed my time at comprehensive school!

[flip_flop]

NOX would be right if we lived in an ideal world - alas, we do not.

Having a single tier of school means you are mixing the brightest in society with the thickest in society - they are not happy bedfellows.

Plus, being a snob (albeit one who did not come from a privileged background but did go to a grammar) I would not want my children going to the same school as the offspring of chavs who, by and large, couldn't give a tinker's cuss for their education.

Edwina Currie and New Judge are spot-on.

[flip_flop]

I should add, where I live, there are three grammars (one for girls and two for boys), one very good CofE affiliated school, one not so good Catholic school, and a school where the 'dregs' go.

As a result, I will be encouraging my children to study hard in order to get into one of the grammars, but as an insurance policy, if neither are academically bright enough, we are cosying up to the local CofE church.

If push came to shove and we were left with no choice other than to go to the school where all the chavs go, I would have to bite the bullet, make lots of sacrifices, and pay for them to go private.

[LazyGun]

I must admit, I do resent being told, by posters such as Howard, flip flop and NJ that effectively my education was substandard as a consequence of going to a comprehensive, rather than a grammar. And to be so dismissive of the educational achievements of intakes over several decades is also pretty insulting.

Grammar schools promote selection, at an early age. They often tend to be single sex education, further divisiveness.Such selection discourages those from the most disadvantaged backgrounds, evidenced by the very small number of free school meal kids etc.

There are obviously problems with the existing educational system, but a return to a grammar school system is not the answer.

[Zhukov]

Can a pupil gain a University place,while studying at a Comprehensive...do they study to "A"level?