Where Does Morality Come From?

[chrisgel]

I have recently become interested in the subject of morality and have noticed that one of the mainstays of religious arguments is the "If you don't believe in God, where do you get your moral compass from?"
I'm personally drawn to the "Social contract" argument i.e. we all want certain rights and freedoms so in order to get them we have to grant them to others.
Unfortunately, I can see some problems with this argument and wondered if anyone had any thoughts on the subject.

[vetuste_ennemi]

I love this question, Chrisgel. There have been many attempts at answering the question and there are problems with even the best of them. The divine command theory is not in my view one of the better attempts.

[vetuste_ennemi]

When I'm at home I'll look up some of the books I've read on the subject and let you know the authors and titles.

[jake-the-peg]

It comes from empathy

Morality generally relates back to the golden rule of 'treat others as you would be treated'

That in turn comes from our capacity (more advanced in some than others) to place ourselves in the shoes of others

[mikey4444]

Its one of the religious fanatics favourite positions, that without a religion, you can't have morality.

What rot. Millions of people have been killed because religions are different from each other, and I can't see much worse from a morality point of view, then to kill someone, just because you don't agree with them. Its happening all over the world, right now.

Why would you need to believe in a God, just be a good person ? Did murder only become a crime after it was included in the Ten Commandments ?

We should all have been brought up by a parents to have a moral code...isn't it just common sense ?

I have been reading recently about the dreadful atrocities that were committed in Rwanda, in the civilwar between the Hutis and the Tutsis. Some of the worse offenders during that terrible time were Catholic priests and Nuns. So much for the morality of the self-deluded.

"God" save from the self-righteous !

[douglas9401]

'Some of the worse offenders during that terrible time were Catholic priests and Nuns'

I guess you mean in a discretion is the better part of valour way rather than swinging machetes.

[chrisgel]

Vetuste - I would really appreciate that. I am only just embarking on this subject and so far have only watched youtube vids and read a few online articles but it seems a fascinating subject.

[chrisgel]

JTP --//It comes from empathy//
Yes I agree but is it not strange then that the religious fundamentalists seem to be devoid of all empathy and seem to have a "moral" code entirely different to atheists.
It seems to me that rather than saying "Where do you get your morals from?" they should be asking "Why are your morals different to ours?"

[mikey4444]

Douglas 9401. Actually no I don't. They were the amongst the most enthusiastic swingers of machetes. Do some research on Wiki. This would be a good place to start =

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide#Religion

The book I have been reading recently is "Crazy River" by Richard Grant. I can recommend this book very highly, as it explains very succinctly how Rwanda got it self into such a mess in the first place. Its also rather good at explaining how foreign aid is ruining Africa. I shall certainly be giving my hard-earned cash to the Dogs Trust instead of any African-based charity in the future.

[jake-the-peg]

I don't think you should characterise religions by their 'fundamentalists' they're not usually representative of the vast majority of the others of their faith.

And there are enough non-religous psychopaths who are not laid at the door of atheism

Most religions have the golden rule at their core

Most of the 10 commandments
Jesus turning the other cheek
Charity as a pillar of Islam

etc

[chrisgel]

JTP - Yes, of course you are right. It's just that when I was typing that I had in mind the question of most religions views on homosexuality and the most vociferous of those views seem to come from fundamentalists although I'm aware that the views are shared by a large number of religious people of all faiths.

[Old_Geezer]

Conscience. Trying to justify logically what you feel instinctively/emotionally to be so. We each have our own viewpoint, but society's accepted view tends to hold sway.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Check the Youtube video of a debate between the moral philosopher Shelley Kagan and Dr. William Lane Craig (the one Dawkins is scared of), Chrisgel. Kagan gives the finest argument for a naturalistic morality I've heard or read.

[sandyRoe]

Do onto others as you would have them do unto you. However it's couched that seems a good basis for morality.

[chrisgel]

Sandyroe - I particularly liked the way it was phrased by comedian Jim Jefferies
"Don't be a d**k".
Succinct and does the job.
Vetuste - Thanks, bookmarked it and will watch tonight.

[doctordb]

For me, morality is a human concept not a reality. It is a way of either justifying our own actions or criticising others. Our own views of morality vary so greatly from individual to individual that it would be impossible to get any consensus for some sort of written moral code. The idea of being governed by ones 'moral compass' is such a pompous and self satisfying way of tricking oneself into believing our actions are always reasoned and altruistic.

The problem is that everyone lays claim to the idea of morality but no-one actually truly lives by it or can define it. There are greater forces at work prompting our decisions such as our genes and social cultures.

Morality? our sense of right and wrong? good or evil? Call it what you want but there ain't no stopping that little selfish gene.

[society]

"Where Does Morality Come From?'

I think ones own perception or understanding of what is deemed as 'good' to them, and this determines their morals.

[jake-the-peg]

Ah funny you should mention homosexuality in that context.

Sexual morality seems to stick out (if you'll excuse the expression)

It often does not gel with the 'golden rule'. I suspect that is because the attitudes towards it were forged in a much earlier age and for many reasons those attitudes have changed relatively recently - at least in Western countries.


I still recall an RE teacher in my (admittedly all boys) school asking the class of 17 and 18 year olds who expected to be a virgin on their wedding night- a few hands went up. Then he asked who expected their bride to be - too my amazement most hands went up! - I couldn't believe it !

I doubt you'd get that result now

[Snafu03]

i beleive in this day and age the question has been turned on its head and people (for example Humanists) beleive that you cant have morality if you are religious. The moral high ground is now firmly belongs to atheists.

[vetuste_ennemi]

"Moral Philosophy - a guide to ethical theory" by Jones, Cardinal and Hayward is an excellent description of the various ethical schools of thought and the objections to them, Chrisgel. I read Simon Blackburn's "Being Good" some while ago and remember having enjoyed it, but not (to my shame) so much so that I can offer a summary of it, so I'll have to read it again. Most recently (thanks to a recommendation on AB) I read Stephen Law's "The War for Children's Minds". This is a fine book. His purpose is to argue for liberal approaches to education rather than authoritarian ones, but in making his case he covers a lot of moral issues, and answers many of the criticisms of naturalistic ethical stances made by the religious. One of the main one of these is the accusation of moral relativism.
My own crude answer to your question "Where does morality come from?" is this: we evolved as herd animals and as such have no choice but to co-operate in order to survive. Further, as mammals we have a need to nurture young and this requires some degree of altruistic behaviour, call it mother love or whatever. The development of intelligent awareness allows us to reflect on our biological conditioning and to see its practical value to us. This rudimentary "morality" is in our early stages confined to the tribe. But it doesn't have to stay there. Increased intelligence gives us the ability to see things from others’ points of view, not only those inside the tribe, but those outside it as well. This intelligent reflection leads us to JTP’s (far more concise) answer – empathy. And empathy is that which creates the “ought” from the “is”.

[chrisgel]

Vetuste -- Thanks for getting back to me and thanks for the book recommendations which I will have a look for tomorrow. I watched the video you recommended and although extremely interesting I did find rather heavy going. As I said my interest is only recent and is an offshoot of my interest in atheism and it's clashes with religion.
I have also watched several videos by Sam Harris on the subject and have found him interesting. Do you have an opinion on him by any chance?