Capital Punishment.

[flobadob]

If someone is proven guilty beyond all doubt of having committed a heinous crime such as murder or child abuse, and is sentenced to life, then why not just sentence those people to death, thereby saving millions by not having to house them in jail for 20+ years?

[Svejk]

I read recently that, rather unbelievably, it costs 3 times as much money to execute prisoners in America as to jail them for life.
Something to do with 20 years of appeals, I suppose.

[ChillDoubt]

No Chilli, it means vengeance, which isn't the same thing at all.
------------------
No mikey, that's your take on it. Mine and many families in America is that it's justice:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-md.kane05feb05,0,6557087.column

[mikey4444]

On that point we will have to agree to disagree then Chilli !

[ChillDoubt]

ColinandJess,
Forgive me, but I don't class 40 years ago as 'modern', certainly not when it comes to DNA evidence and P.A.C.E, which were not around in the 70's.

[ChillDoubt]

Some interesting reading here:

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/vengeance.htm

[New Judge]

As I usually join in this twice yearly debate I'll say the same again.

Whilst all of the earlier answers are very interesting they are completely irrelevant.

The answer to the question "...why not just sentence those people to death" is that we cannot because we belong to the EU. There is no need to discuss the morality or practicality of such a measure. The UK abolished capital punishment in the 1960s following votes in its Parliament. Now, even if every voter and every member of both Houses of Parliament - including all the ministers - wanted to restore capital punishment they could not. Capital punishment is forbidden under the European Convention on Human Rights and being a signatory to the ECHR is a condition (through membership of the Council of Europe) of EU membership. So to restore capital punishment the UK would have to withdraw as a signatory to the ECHR, leave the Council of Europe and leave the EU. None of these is likely to happen this side of Hell freezing over.

The moral to this tale - if you want to live in a nation which decides its own form of judicial punishment (among many, many other things) do not belong to the EU.

[ludwig]

It's ok for society to kill people in case they might be about to commit a crime, but not after they've actually done it.

The former is prevention of something bad happening, and no-one has a problem with that. The latter looks like vengeance, so we get all squeamish about it.

[brionon]

Er--because mistakes are made !! Don't you get it ? Only if guilty beyond doubt ? D'you mean we sentence people to Life when there is a doubt ? For X sake get a brain.

[mikey4444]

NJ...not sure why you have decided to make this yet another attack on the EU ? As you say the vote to abolish the death penalty was taken in the 60's and there has been no interest whatsoever in our Parliament to bring the penalty back. None at all. Zero. So it doesn't matter whether it would produce difficulties in the EU if we were to try to bring hanging back or not. There is no movement or intention by any of our elected representatives to do so, apart from a few loony tunes outside of Westminster, like the BNP.

This is a moral question and not a political one and the waters do not need muddying by anti-EU rants.

[New Judge]

I'm simply saying that it does not matter what the people of the UK think or want. They cannot have it and that is because our membership of the EU (or more specifically our being signatories to the ECHR) precludes it. I know there has been no appetite for restoration of the death penalty and that's just as well. The issue itself is immaterial, it's the principle that matters. People need to understand that they need not consider such questions whilst we continue with our EU membership. They are no longer matters for us. They are determined elsewhere.

[Svejk]

don't you think we'll have a referendum and maybe leave in a few years, nj?

[berniecuddles]

do-gooders rule..!!

[hc4361]

Look at the USA example and you will find that it costs millions to execute a person found guilty.

http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42

[New Judge]

If only, Svejk, if only.

Interestingly a number of euro-maniacs on the continent are no longer considering the UK's position on various issues at all (not that they ever considered it very much). They seem to be of the opinion that we will leave sooner rather than later. Once again, if only.

[Peter Pedant]

Flobadob the short answer is that we are sure that someone has done something, we have found out embarrassingly that er they didnt.

Virtually all the Irish terrorists bar the Balcombe street gang.
The trial judges blushingly saying that it was a pity that they werent charged with treason because then he could hang them

Chill doubt is sure that the changes in procedure which followed some howling errors in conviction have made sure it couldnt happen again -
I am not sure.....

in fact I am sure they havent....

[jim360]

I'd say your argument is backfiring a bit on me at least, NJ, because I think that if ever Parliament voting to reintroduce Capital Punishment then it would be the most horrific decision they could make -- and I'm therefore pleased that it isn't even possible. How lucky to be in a situation where we can be protected from what would be a tragedy for democracy...

[naomi24]

Mikey,// …. there has been no interest whatsoever in our Parliament to bring the penalty back. None at all. Zero.//

That’s not true.

// it was last debated in Parliament in 1998 during the passage of the Human Rights Act. It was rejected by 158 votes.//

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14402195

[New Judge]

I'm afraid I don't share your viewpoint, jim. Far from backfiring I think the capital punishment issue demonstrates my point perfectly.

The rights or wrongs of the individual issue are not relevant. Citizens of some nations may feel the need to be afforded protection from their government's excesses - and indeed some need it. Those in the UK should not feel such a need. The issue of capital punishment is a case in point. There is no popular majority appetite for the measure. It was seen as no longer appropriate fifty years ago, it was debated in Westminster and it was consigned to history without the need for supranational intervention. It is unlikely to be resurrected and on the one occasion it was debated it was again soundly rejected. However it and all other judicial and legislative measures should be matters for the UK Parliament. What people in the UK need protection from is not from its own government. Their MPs can hold the government to account and ultimately dismiss them if they had the bottle (something they could have done far easier but for the preposterous Fixed Term Parliament Act introduced to appease the LibDems). What they need is protection from legislation made by unelected officials who cannot be removed and over whom they have no control whatsoever.

[mikey4444]

Hanging is not going to come back in Britain, just as we are not going to send small boys up chimneys again...get over it everybody !

[keyplus90]

Yes, you have a point. Keep going.