Et Witnesses Theists Or Anti-Theists?

[Hypognosis]

Khandro said

//If some form of life could be found he knows the implications are enormous, because it sure as hell didn't come from here, and so all bets would be off as to where it all came from.//

Previously I have always assumed that the existence of Extra-Terrestrial life would prove that earth is nowhere special and therefore we are not "God's chosen ones". Even more so if they are the ones who mastered interstellar travel before we do.

Although he doesn't say so, Khandro, in the context of a thread about DNA origins, appears to imply that life arising on other planets proves the creator God spans the galaxy (possibly the entire universe) and this, therefore, invalidates theories of DNA arising spontaneously on earth, from random chemical interactions. Possibly on the grounds that it is bad enough that the "massively improbable" event sequence occurs in one place but the odds are combinatorial and occuring twice compounds the improbability.

I've not seen that argument put forward before and I have always wondered what the deeper motives of UFO=ET believers were: to prove God exists or that s/he does not exist.

Which side do you take?



Note: UFOs have been discussed, exhaustively, on the internet. If you could avoid mistaking this thread for one of those, I'll know you've read this far and I will appeciate that, and your replies, greatly.

[vetuste_ennemi]

I'm sure there's a simple but interesting question hiding in one corner of your post, Hypo. What exactly is it?

[wildwood]

In terms of evolution, humans beings have been around for a minuscule time. It therefore would be perfectly feasible that somewhere in the Universe there is some form of life, probably in an unrecognisable form to us, at some evolutionary stage.

Humans will not be around for hundreds of millions of years in the present form, proof of various mutations from the pre-human is already around in the form of geological races, variants from the original 'out-of-Africa' people.

The Bible seems to be interpreted to suit each religious belief. The inexplicit text can be transmuted to mean anything. I really wouldn't think that the evidence of extra-terrestrial life forms, even in its most basic form, would prove or disprove the existence of an omnipotent god. The 'church' is already uttering so called explanations for alien life.

[jomifl]

Some people admit that there are gaps in their understanding of the universe, others deny the gaps exist of fill them with supernatural glue(which only available as transparent)

[EDDIE51]

What makes you think DNA based life is the only kind that can exist?
It is probably / possibly just one of billions of ways life could evolve.
The only common denominator is that life must be based on Carbon, as no other element has the ability to form such a huge range of compounds.

[mikey4444]

As an atheist, I can safely ignore all the religious nonsense !

So, its entirely possible that bacteria arrived on earth, from "somewhere out there "

I can recall a series on the TV years ago, presented by Carl Sagan, where he attempted to create very simple bacterial life, by enclosing some very basic chemicals inside a sealed glass laboratory vessel, and bombarding it with light ( I think ! ) But I can't remember what the exact outcome was.

It looks as if there has been water on Mars at some point in its past, and logic would say that where there has been water, life may have existed as well.

Who knows !

[EDDIE51]

Look here
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2010/12/epic-discovery-nasa-discovers-new-non-dna-based-life-form-to-be-annouced-at-2-pm-est.html

[naomi24]

I don’t think most genuine UFO/ET enthusiasts think much about God being involved at all. They’re more interested in the potential of future science. Discovery of life elsewhere would create a problem for many theists, but as always, religion is flexible and somehow the ’scholars’ would find a reason to justify its existence whilst at the same time clinging to the notion that they and their like-minded adherents are, among all of 'creation', special.

Given the young age of our solar system, it’s entirely possible that life has existed elsewhere for countless millennia before this planet was formed. There’s no reason to believe that, given similar conditions, life as we know it couldn’t have arisen elsewhere – or indeed given different conditions that life as we do not know couldn’t have arisen elsewhere. The human intellect is very often severely inhibited by what it knows, or by what it thinks it knows, which I suspect, where the universe, is concerned is very little.

[mikey4444]

I agree Naomi (!)...a well argued point.

[EDDIE51]

Naomi, I agree with your post above apart from the bit about 'life has existed for countless millennia before this planet was formed''
There are strong scientific/ physical reasons why life throughout the universe would have developed at roughly the same time ( within a few 10s of million years which is less than the blink of an eye in view of the age of the Universe)

[jim360]

I guess you could say that non-DNA based life would be "life, Jim, but not as we know it". I'm out of my depths in knowing whether such a statement even makes sense, although maybe it's not totally crazy. Depends on whether or not you call viruses life, I guess.

I don't think it would pose a problem for theists. As others have said, they would find a way to fit it in -- but, to be fair, this wouldn't entirely be reactionary. Apparently Milton considered the question of life elsewhere in the Universe in Paradise Lost, so the theological implications have been considered, on and off, for easily around 400 years already. For some it won't be a problem; for others, who currently might preach that God's existence "proves" that there cannot be such life, I'm sure they will find a way around it when the time comes.

[Hypognosis]

@EDDIE51

Thanks for that link. Among the other news stories was this semi-pertinent one
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2015/09/radiation-from-the-milky-way-could-have-had-a-profound-effect-on-mutation-rates.html

I'm just pasting/posting that before I lose track of it.

@vetuste_ennemi

Assume, for the sake of argument, that alien life exists and parks up on the White House's lawn. Does their existence prove the creation story false or true?

That's the short and short of it. :O)

The void and the heavens only get the briefest of literary treatment. If God created life throughout the universe and the bible is his his word (albeit 'channeled' through priests & scribes) and he "loves us" then you would think he would have the decency to mention it, in Chapter 1, would you not?

@wildwood

So the church are getting their excuses prepared already? Interesting.

The flaw in my thread here is that we like to take the bible literally, or over-literally and beat them over the head with the contradictions and oh-so-convenient vagueness and ambiguity within it. Its authors really knew what they were doing. A shoe with no wriggle room isn't at all comfortable.

[Hypognosis]

@jomifl

God of the gaps, is it?

@EDDIE51

//What makes you think DNA based life is the only kind that can exist? //

For the purposes of this thread, I'm not going to limit it to that. Silicon has been postulated before but its polymers only go up to chains about 6 silicons long before they lose stability. (I don't really understand the details but the way electron shells 'smear out' around a molecule works well for carbon chains but badly for silicon ones; maybe its as simple as that they are more reactive, too easily oxidised and so on).

//It is probably / possibly just one of billions of ways life could evolve.
The only common denominator is that life must be based on Carbon, as no other element has the ability to form such a huge range of compounds. //

Yup.

I also consider the aspect of an "event tree". What we have on earth now is a consequence of mass extinctions, continental drift, changing climate and what ate what else before the latter could disperse its progeny.

In other words, even with identical causes at the molecular level, two planets with different continental layouts and weather patterns will end up with different species sets. There will still be vegetation, herbivores, carnivores, bacteria, funguses and disease organisms because those 'roles' have few reasons not to be universal.

[Hypognosis]

@mikey4444

//So, its entirely possible that bacteria arrived on earth, from "somewhere out there " //

Subject to debate. Meteors get so hot that they vapourise, even though made of rock. Proteins denature at temperatures as low as 80°C (see meat thermometers, for instance, or fry an egg: change if colour means change of structure).

Meteorites bring unmelted rock to ground level but then the impact generates heat sufficient to melt both the impactor and the land surface. Bacteria like crevices but that would, obviously, expose them to the vacuum of space as well as being where the impactor would split, even with a relatively soft landing.

I don't want to write off the chances for space-faring bacteria but it's a slim chance. Partially cooked ones, dispersing amino acids, sugars or DNA bases into earth's primordial soup, I'd be more willing to believe.


//I can recall a series on the TV years ago, presented by Carl Sagan, //

Cozmoze (Cosmos) is the only one I can recall. No sequel. Only got repeated once, if at all.

//where he attempted to create very simple bacterial life, by enclosing some very basic chemicals inside a sealed glass laboratory vessel, and bombarding it with light ( I think ! ) But I can't remember what the exact outcome was. //

That's the Miller-Urey experiment, which I posted a wiki link to, in Khandro's thread.

[Hypognosis]

@naomi

Good points.

//but as always, religion is flexible and somehow the ’scholars’ would find a reason to justify its existence whilst at the same time clinging to the notion that they and their like-minded adherents are, among all of 'creation', special. //

Give or take that it may have been asked, before, about why theists think themselves (or this planet) special, perhaps that would be worth another separate thread? (I'm in no hurry for that, at the moment).

//flexible//

They twist and turn, like a twisty, turney thing?

[Hypognosis]

@EDDIE51

//There are strong scientific/ physical reasons why life throughout the universe would have developed at roughly the same time ( within a few 10s of million years which is less than the blink of an eye in view of the age of the Universe)//

Might this be the thing about 1st-generation and 2nd-generation stars?

I recently watched that Horizon epidode about "Cosmic Dawn" - regarding the earliest stars after the Big Bang but it has possibly dropped off iPlayer by now (over 30 days ago).

[naomi24]

Eddie, //'life has existed for countless millennia before this planet was formed'' //

To clarify, I didn't say that. I said //it’s entirely possible that life has existed elsewhere for countless millennia before this planet was formed. //

.... but tens of millions of years will do. Just imagine the potential of a civilisation tens of millions of years in advance of ours ..... but back to the subject.

Hypognosis, //They twist and turn, like a twisty, turney thing?//

They do indeed.

[Hypognosis]

@jim360

//Depends on whether or not you call viruses life, I guess. //

They do not eat or transduce energy in any way. They do not locomote (plants stretch that definition too, if you are picky).

In fact, they cannot come into existence until cells exist - the machinery of replication and protein synthesis.

Unless: you can conceive of things like mineral surfaces (clay particle surface areas add up to huge totals) which can bind ligands, catalyse reactions and support a primitive kind of DNA replication or build polypeptides with no cell membrane involved at all.

The biggest gain from cell membranes is the ability to sequester low ambient levels of nutrients into a manageable space by active transport, in some cases. Internal consumption/turnover of a substance creates and maintains a concentration gradient, causing passive transport (diffusion and/or osmosis).

Figuring out how half-built life forms work is borderline exobiology.

[Theland]

After reading that lot, I'll never feel the same again when feeding my goldfish.
Have I just wondered into the university library?