Jews in Britain

[whiffey]

Yes Ok I am watching Richard Littlejohn, bad bad of course, but a few things flit through my head.

Anything anti-Israel nowadays is applauded. Anything pro-Palestine is applauded (Ken is a prime example).

Israelis (Jews) tend to be technologically advanced, they have an infuriating habit of defending their homeland, which is about the size of Wales, against missiles coming in with righteous indignation from all sides.

Why don't they just give in ? I mean, they are on a hiding to nothing surely. Bush and BLAIR have supported them illegally and those two criminals will be brought to justice under international law soon enough.

How comfortable is your Western armchair ?

[jno]

you equate Israelis with Jews. This isn't true, though many Israelis like to think it is.

[whiffey]

Yes I do equate Israelis with Jews jno.

Someone has to stick up for them, amidst all the rabid Islamic screaming about how evil they are. It's ok for Ken to do it though, nasally.

If my house was being assaulted, I'd do something to protect it. But I'd be arrested for some sort of ism.

[jake-the-peg]

OK so Israel was attacked by terrorists operating from Lebanon and Syria.

We were often attacked by terrorists in NI operating from within the republic.

We didn't respond by bombing Dublin

There's now peace in NI

[flip_flop]

I have been amazed for some time now how Israel, the only free country in the Middle East, is seen as the Devil incarnate.

I am also amazed how british Jews are persecuted by white liberals, Muslims and, of course, our most famous anti-semite Ken Livingstone, and yet it borders on the acceptable.

Last night there was footage of Muslim marchers calling for the death of jews - I mean fer christs sake, how are they allowed to get away with that: it was absolutely disgraceful.

There was also the footage of white liberals marching with banners stating they were with Hezbollah!!! This is the mysogynistic, racist, homophobic, facist, murdering Hezbollah that they've sided with then is it??? Amazing.

Anti-semitism is the just about the oldest ism there is, and yet those people on this site who are always up in arms when ever anybody says anything negative about Muslims or any other minority are amazingly quiet on the subject.

Funny that.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism and most reasonably intelligent people are able to grasp this concept.

However, I recently listened to Radio 4's Heresy in which David Baddiel (himself a Jew, lest anyone not know) was making the point that he finds it difficult to call himself anti-Zionist nowadays, despite his opposition to Israel's policies on Palestine, because too many people who would describe themseleves as being in that camp are actually just plain old anti-Semites.

I don't agree that everything anti-Israel is applauded anyway; there's much more balance than I think you're admitting. Certainly I've seen lots of pro-Israeli coverage. The Telegraph always used to be pro, for a start.

I think there's always a problem with these things in trying to imply that if one is against Israel's more draconian policies against Palestine, one therefore supports suicide bombers in Jewish Weddings, or likes honour killings. That seems incredibly facile to me, and not a terribly helpful way of looking at things.

The facts of the matter are that both sides in that conflict have done terrible, unethical and immoral things. One of those sides is of strategic importance in the Middle East to the West and therefore has had UN Security Vetos deployed in its favour, not because of tacit approval for their policies, but because it is politically expedient for the US and the UK to do so. Those of us who hold humanitiarian principles highly see a clear discrepancy in the way that our foriegn policy is enforced.

[jake-the-peg]

Shall we have a little look at what Amnesty International has to say:

Increased violence between Israelis and Palestinians resulted in a threefold increase in killings of Palestinians by Israeli forces. The number of Israelis killed by Palestinian armed groups diminished by half.....

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Middl e-East-and-North-Africa/Israel-and-the-Occupie d-Territories

or are they anti-semites too?

[rubberneck]

I think that you'd have to be supremely daft not to realise that there is anti-semitism in this country.............but I was shocked and sickened to realise the extent of it.

The events shown in Manchester defied belief. Schools with a Police protection and a 'bomb response plan' !

The terrible desecration of the Jewish cemeteries!

I would hang my head in shame if I felt that I had been in some way tarred with the brush of the anti-semite.

Israel is a tricky subject...........especially if you only get your information from the TV.

I believe that I am reasonably well informed about the situation but would not like to debate the rights and wrongs with someone with a particular passion from either side of the debate........

But I DO think that British Jews are being held accountable for the actions of Israel..........I'm just not sure by whom !

[Ethel]

A very serious subject, but flip flops choice of terminology made me laugh:

"death of jews - I mean fer christs sake"

[WaldoMcFroog]

Thank you for yet another of your endlessly useful contributions to the Answerbank

Why not try responding to the debate?

[Goodsoulette]

I really, really dont understand thew whole Israel thing. I know I would like it to hurry the hell up so I can go there on holiday. If anyone has a dummies guide to whats going on out there that would be great.

[NJOK]

If it's background information you want, the BBC almost always gives good context to big stories.

Here's a good starting point.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/middle_eas t/2001/israel_and_the_palestinians/default.stm

I await the accusations of BBC bias from AB's mini-Littlejohns.

[jno]

to answer Leon:

Anti-Semitism is to be against Jews.

Anti-Zionism is to be against the state of Israel.

A third possibility is not to oppose the state of Israel but to believe its actions are wrong.

Some Jews are anti-Zionist. Some Israelis are Arab or Christian. Some Jews aren't Israelis. And Arabs are Semites too.

[flip_flop]

So where does anti-zionism end and anti-semitism start?

Difficult one this!

I don't have a problem people criticising the State of Israel as that comes under the banner of legitimate debate, I do however have a problem with people who then extend that criticism into a villification and hatred of Judaism in general which is then anti-semitism.

Ken states he is an opponent of Israel's dealings with Palestine - this is perfectly fair enough as I am a bit 'iffy' about that as well.

However, what he said to the Standard reporter WAS anti-semitism.

[raysparx1]

My belief is that after the holocaust which some still deny happened, israel was formed and they have defended it with as much aggression as possible and i know from talking to a few jewish friends years ago who went to live in israel that they would rather all die than be treated as they were then, israel will never surrender and I for one believe they have every right to use whatever force is required to defend what was created for them, were they supposed to have nowhere to call home ? they now have a home and will never willingly leave it.

[NJOK]

Yes, Ray, but they didn't make the country out of papier mache though did they?

It was an existing piece of land that already had people living on it. Do those people not have a right to defend their home?

[raysparx1]

NJOK, yes it was existing land but wasn't it agreed with all sides ? the jews had to have land, they had been exiled for so long, I know they have taken more land than they should, and that must be sorted, but they will never surrender to aggression, never in a million years