Religion & Spirituality5 mins ago
Capital Punishment.
34 Answers
It seems to me that the majority of people who are anti-capital punishment are liberal, do-gooders wearing rose tinted glasses.
In this I mean that if a member of their family was kidnapped, brutally raped then tortured to death, they would surely change their minds & bay for blood?
You can't tell me that anyones child who is killed in the above sort of way would forgive the perpetrator! Every parent I've talked to or listened to have said they would kill anyone who hurt a hair on their childs head.
In this I mean that if a member of their family was kidnapped, brutally raped then tortured to death, they would surely change their minds & bay for blood?
You can't tell me that anyones child who is killed in the above sort of way would forgive the perpetrator! Every parent I've talked to or listened to have said they would kill anyone who hurt a hair on their childs head.
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Capital punishment has no place in a civilised society.
The 'revenge' argument may apply to the families of murdered individuals, although as stated in the debate - by no means everyone bays for blood under these circumstances.
I would have serious reservations about anyone who advised that they would kill someone who hurt their child. I could never kill anyone, I believe it to be fundamentally wrong, and the notion of murder as some form of 'justice' is patently flawed. It can be reasoned as revenge, but again, that disqualifies it from civilised behaviour.
The 'revenge' argument may apply to the families of murdered individuals, although as stated in the debate - by no means everyone bays for blood under these circumstances.
I would have serious reservations about anyone who advised that they would kill someone who hurt their child. I could never kill anyone, I believe it to be fundamentally wrong, and the notion of murder as some form of 'justice' is patently flawed. It can be reasoned as revenge, but again, that disqualifies it from civilised behaviour.
NJ's argument about the way the abolition of capital punishment may be true but it is misleading.
Any campaign that was put in place about the way that capital crimes would be handled in the future 40 or 50 years ago is neither here nor there with regard to currrent practice.
To suggest outherwise would imply that the politicians of nearly half a century ago could tie the hands of legislature today.
That is the sort of nonsense that we expect to hear in the context of papal infallibility.
There have been many votes on capital punishment since the abolition bill, and they have been free votes, no party whip has been involved and in all circumstances a clear majority of MPs have voted for the abolition to stay.
Therefore what may or may not have been the expectation half a century ago is entirely irrelevant.
Any campaign that was put in place about the way that capital crimes would be handled in the future 40 or 50 years ago is neither here nor there with regard to currrent practice.
To suggest outherwise would imply that the politicians of nearly half a century ago could tie the hands of legislature today.
That is the sort of nonsense that we expect to hear in the context of papal infallibility.
There have been many votes on capital punishment since the abolition bill, and they have been free votes, no party whip has been involved and in all circumstances a clear majority of MPs have voted for the abolition to stay.
Therefore what may or may not have been the expectation half a century ago is entirely irrelevant.
I don't think capital punishment was routinely used when we had it, many killers were not sentanced to death, there was a child murderer on the Titanic, to suggest that Britain had gallows bursting with bodies is erroneous. Even modern China (executes the most people per annum) does little over 100 a year.
Undoubtedly to get public approval full life tariffs would have been espoused as the solution, it's that they're not implemented, day and weekend releases are put in that annoys.
I'm not a hang em flog em kinda bloke, although I do believe prisons should be more austere, the political reality is that good prisons don't come cheap and more money spent on prisoners is a vote loser.
The funny thing is with full life tariffs is that when you watch "The Shawshank Redemption" you see the character "Red" (Morgan Freeman) and you want him to get out, you empathise with his loss of liberty and youth, you feel as though he is a victim, in the film Red was a killer.....
Undoubtedly to get public approval full life tariffs would have been espoused as the solution, it's that they're not implemented, day and weekend releases are put in that annoys.
I'm not a hang em flog em kinda bloke, although I do believe prisons should be more austere, the political reality is that good prisons don't come cheap and more money spent on prisoners is a vote loser.
The funny thing is with full life tariffs is that when you watch "The Shawshank Redemption" you see the character "Red" (Morgan Freeman) and you want him to get out, you empathise with his loss of liberty and youth, you feel as though he is a victim, in the film Red was a killer.....
I don't think it's so much a desire of most people to have capital punishment restored, it is more a matter of general disgust at how the punishment pendulum has swung the other way which causes a sense of outrage and injustice in a lot of our fairminded population.
Capital punishment is of course an irreversible sentence whereas the imposition of a "life" sentence is, at least here in the UK, left open to the interpretation of the sentencing guidlines by the powers that be.
And the fact that those same powers that be allow persons convicted of murder to serve only a fraction of that "life" sentence is seen by many people, I believe, to be a dereliction of their duty to "properly" punish perpetrators.
My view is that, were "life" to actually mean "life", we would have far less hue and cry for the restoration of the death penalty. It would seem to me to be the fairest method of punishment for a most heinous crime.
Capital punishment is of course an irreversible sentence whereas the imposition of a "life" sentence is, at least here in the UK, left open to the interpretation of the sentencing guidlines by the powers that be.
And the fact that those same powers that be allow persons convicted of murder to serve only a fraction of that "life" sentence is seen by many people, I believe, to be a dereliction of their duty to "properly" punish perpetrators.
My view is that, were "life" to actually mean "life", we would have far less hue and cry for the restoration of the death penalty. It would seem to me to be the fairest method of punishment for a most heinous crime.
Think you missed a decimal point there everton
Last year China executed at least 1,718 some for crimes such as tax evasion.
That number is a big increase from last years figure and may grow this year as at least 7,000 were sentenced to death in 2008
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/uploads/documents/do c_19271.pdf
Last year China executed at least 1,718 some for crimes such as tax evasion.
That number is a big increase from last years figure and may grow this year as at least 7,000 were sentenced to death in 2008
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/uploads/documents/do c_19271.pdf
You seem to be assuming that people directly affected by a rapist or murderer would automatically want them to die. This is not always be true and you are mixing an acceptance of the death penalty as a necessary deterrent and prevention method, with the use of it by means of vengeance.
If, God forbid, anyone harmed my children I cannot imagine what I would do to them, but that doesn�t mean I want CP to be introduced. For one thing, I could end up being sentenced to death myself.
If that makes me a liberal loony lefty wefty in your eyes MWB then so be it. I have seen enough of your ramblings to not really care for your opinion very much. In MY opinion, it is purely evil. If it is something you want from a society in which you live, then why not move to America, China or Saudi for a wee bit and see how safe and warm you feel from such murderers and rapists who obviously don�t exist because CP is in use�..
If, God forbid, anyone harmed my children I cannot imagine what I would do to them, but that doesn�t mean I want CP to be introduced. For one thing, I could end up being sentenced to death myself.
If that makes me a liberal loony lefty wefty in your eyes MWB then so be it. I have seen enough of your ramblings to not really care for your opinion very much. In MY opinion, it is purely evil. If it is something you want from a society in which you live, then why not move to America, China or Saudi for a wee bit and see how safe and warm you feel from such murderers and rapists who obviously don�t exist because CP is in use�..
Wiz - You are comparing murderers to homosexuals and adulterers and are asking me if Islam will treat them all equally when it comes to capital punishment. Well all I can say is that one kills directly in single numbers and others in 100s but indirectly. You can find figures yourself. Just google it. As to your civilisation then the definition of that can be twisted to suit any one. Otherwise a man marrying a man had never been known as civilisation ever.
Capital punishment is not just about punishment, but punishment in public so others should learn a lesson. I know when I say this then a typical kind of reaction I always receive. Octavius said just about same thing. Go and see in Saudi Arabia where punishment is not only capital but open too so people can see. Find me how many murderers, drug dealers etc you would find? Find me how many people are with one hand missing? You know why? No one would commit it in the first place as they might have seen with their own eyes what happened to the ones who did.
Second option is that you keep putting in prison, life mean life and change half of the country into prison as people are living longer now a days. And don't forget increase in tax as someone has to pay for these people�s luxuries. Or else 50 or 100 lashes in the local park where they are from (so they are humiliated) and after one day they can get back to their work.
Compare the cost and the result yourself.
Capital punishment is not just about punishment, but punishment in public so others should learn a lesson. I know when I say this then a typical kind of reaction I always receive. Octavius said just about same thing. Go and see in Saudi Arabia where punishment is not only capital but open too so people can see. Find me how many murderers, drug dealers etc you would find? Find me how many people are with one hand missing? You know why? No one would commit it in the first place as they might have seen with their own eyes what happened to the ones who did.
Second option is that you keep putting in prison, life mean life and change half of the country into prison as people are living longer now a days. And don't forget increase in tax as someone has to pay for these people�s luxuries. Or else 50 or 100 lashes in the local park where they are from (so they are humiliated) and after one day they can get back to their work.
Compare the cost and the result yourself.
Keyplus, Saudi Arabia is a destination country for workers from South and Southeast Asia who are subjected to conditions that constitute involuntary servitude including being subjected to physical and sexual abuse, non-payment of wages, confinement, and withholding of passports as a restriction on their movement; domestic workers are particularly vulnerable because some are confined to the house in which they work unable to seek help; Saudi is also a destination country for Nigerian, Yemeni, Pakistani, Afghan, Somali, Malian, and Sudanese children trafficked for forced begging and street vending; some Nigerian women were reportedly trafficked into Saudi Arabia for commercial sexual exploitation.
In the recent stats Saudi murder crimess came 28th out of 49, manslaughter 19th out of 42. So it is not the crime-free utopia you purport it to be.
Have you ever been there Keyplus, and I don�t just mean to Mecca? The immigrants mentioned above live in fear. And that fear is not because of the harsh laws, it is because of the corrupt and unfair trials meted out against foreign immigrants. 51% of all prisoners in Saudi are foreigners, mostly Pakistanis, against a global average of 15%.
"King Abdul Aziz wanted to show me a village we were flying over," he said. "I didn't know why but when we got overhead, it was just a deserted place with a few stray dogs.
"And then the king said to me: `The people of this village used to rob the caravans to Mecca and I warned them to stop. They didn't listen to me, so I warned them again. Again, they didn't listen. So I sent my guards to the village and they cut off the heads of every man, woman and child. And they waited for villagers to return from far away. And they cut off their heads too. And there was no more robbery. If you are going to rule, you must use your power and be firm."
If this is appropriate �justice� to you then there are plenty
In the recent stats Saudi murder crimess came 28th out of 49, manslaughter 19th out of 42. So it is not the crime-free utopia you purport it to be.
Have you ever been there Keyplus, and I don�t just mean to Mecca? The immigrants mentioned above live in fear. And that fear is not because of the harsh laws, it is because of the corrupt and unfair trials meted out against foreign immigrants. 51% of all prisoners in Saudi are foreigners, mostly Pakistanis, against a global average of 15%.
"King Abdul Aziz wanted to show me a village we were flying over," he said. "I didn't know why but when we got overhead, it was just a deserted place with a few stray dogs.
"And then the king said to me: `The people of this village used to rob the caravans to Mecca and I warned them to stop. They didn't listen to me, so I warned them again. Again, they didn't listen. So I sent my guards to the village and they cut off the heads of every man, woman and child. And they waited for villagers to return from far away. And they cut off their heads too. And there was no more robbery. If you are going to rule, you must use your power and be firm."
If this is appropriate �justice� to you then there are plenty
Im all for the death penalty if there is no doubt of guilt. Surely if there are a dozen witnesses to someone being stabbed it is clear cut? But as a general option it can never work until you find an infallible way of proving guilt. The more pressing argument should be why is prison life so soft? Soft furnishing, colour tv, snooker, a good education? Its no wonder criminals arnt worried about being inside when it offers the kind of life you wish you had on the outside. Hard boot camps thats what you want.
Octavius - Once again, I am not specifically talking only about Saudi Arabia. But about the implication of the Islamic laws. In the areas of life where they have Islamic laws in place then anyone can see the results there. For example jewellery shops there are left wide open (no time delayed locks, no gun men).
On the other hand if they do have injustice in few areas (which I do agree with you) then, don't you think that is the reason why you are criticising them. Still Saudi Arabia is far better than a lot more countries when it come to crimes.
And that is the reason Islam is not a religion but way of life. You apply 25% and result would be 25%. You apply 100% then the result would be 100%. Choice is wide open. If Islam forbids drinking. Then whoever stops it would benefit financially as well as physically and emotionally regardless of what religion they believe in.
On the other hand if they do have injustice in few areas (which I do agree with you) then, don't you think that is the reason why you are criticising them. Still Saudi Arabia is far better than a lot more countries when it come to crimes.
And that is the reason Islam is not a religion but way of life. You apply 25% and result would be 25%. You apply 100% then the result would be 100%. Choice is wide open. If Islam forbids drinking. Then whoever stops it would benefit financially as well as physically and emotionally regardless of what religion they believe in.
Keyplus, forgive me but up above you said �Go and see in Saudi Arabia where punishment is not only capital but open too so people can see. Find me how many murderers, drug dealers etc you would find? Find me how many people are with one hand missing? You know why? No one would commit it in the first place as they might have seen with their own eyes what happened to the ones who did.�
So my question to you (again) is, have you been there and seen it for yourself?
For example jewellery shops there are left wide open (no time delayed locks, no gun men).
Are you really sure about that? It is not my recollection at all.
Saudi Arabia is far better than a lot more countries when it come to crimes.
Are you really sure about that? Perhaps this is only because the crime statistics are manipulated by the government and a kangaroo court proceeding, where anyone who is not Saudi national and enters a Saudi court, is destined for the highest punishment available under Shariah Law.
If you are content to accept that Shariah law in a country which is one of its greatest proponents is riddled with hidden prostitution, child trafficking, slavery, racism, paedophilia and sexual abuse, is the way forward, then what has attracted you to stay in the UK? Would you not prefer to live in a "crime free" society where Shariah Law � or even Capital Punishment - was de rigueur?
So my question to you (again) is, have you been there and seen it for yourself?
For example jewellery shops there are left wide open (no time delayed locks, no gun men).
Are you really sure about that? It is not my recollection at all.
Saudi Arabia is far better than a lot more countries when it come to crimes.
Are you really sure about that? Perhaps this is only because the crime statistics are manipulated by the government and a kangaroo court proceeding, where anyone who is not Saudi national and enters a Saudi court, is destined for the highest punishment available under Shariah Law.
If you are content to accept that Shariah law in a country which is one of its greatest proponents is riddled with hidden prostitution, child trafficking, slavery, racism, paedophilia and sexual abuse, is the way forward, then what has attracted you to stay in the UK? Would you not prefer to live in a "crime free" society where Shariah Law � or even Capital Punishment - was de rigueur?
Finally two very typical kind of replies.
1. Crimes are not reported............ Why can't you accept that there is not as much to report.
2. If you think it is very safe then what are you doing in the UK?............... I have heard this so many times before and mainly people use this when they have nothing better and positive to say.
Yes for your knowledge, I have been to SA few times (and not only Mecca and Madina). My brother is settled there since 1982 and most of the things are first hand knowledge.
ohhhhhhhhh Now most probably 2nd on ^^ is about to be repeated.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_perc ap-crime-murders-per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_perc ap-crime-rapes-per-capita
These are not my figures. But I would leave you with it as I have no intention to change anyone's thoughts.
1. Crimes are not reported............ Why can't you accept that there is not as much to report.
2. If you think it is very safe then what are you doing in the UK?............... I have heard this so many times before and mainly people use this when they have nothing better and positive to say.
Yes for your knowledge, I have been to SA few times (and not only Mecca and Madina). My brother is settled there since 1982 and most of the things are first hand knowledge.
ohhhhhhhhh Now most probably 2nd on ^^ is about to be repeated.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_perc ap-crime-murders-per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_perc ap-crime-rapes-per-capita
These are not my figures. But I would leave you with it as I have no intention to change anyone's thoughts.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_exe-crim e-executions
The human rights organisation Amnesty International regularly condemns Saudi Arabia for its executions and for the mockery of a trial which most of the victims receive. The hearings, according to Amnesty, do not accord with the basic norms of international law and are often heard in secret. Moreover, women convicted of drugs offences are sometimes rape victims who are judicially murdered to prevent them identifying their assailant.
So no rape crime reported.
The human rights organisation Amnesty International regularly condemns Saudi Arabia for its executions and for the mockery of a trial which most of the victims receive. The hearings, according to Amnesty, do not accord with the basic norms of international law and are often heard in secret. Moreover, women convicted of drugs offences are sometimes rape victims who are judicially murdered to prevent them identifying their assailant.
So no rape crime reported.
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