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Non believers
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Those people on here who are non believers, if you were true believers previously, what caused you to reject the notion of God and religion
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Keyplus, Mibs post says it all really - and Jomifli's isn't far behind. :o)
However, moving on, you're challenging me to write a book - and you're giving me 23 years in which you do it. Now that's really funny! :o)
So, let's get this straight. Mohammed was a merchant - and a wily old merchant at that - but we won't mention the Satanic verses in detail, because that was one of his less successful ideas. Right, Mohammed was a merchant - but it's fair to say his business interests were not confined to a stall in Petticoat Lane, wouldn't you agree? If not, I suggest you read your history.
Now let's talk about common sense.
Nobody had ever heard of Islam until it was invented in the 7th century. Nevertheless, it has existed since time immemorial. This you believe.
Islam's prophets, including Jesus, and apart from Mohammed, were absolutely convinced they were Jewish, but since they lived hundreds of years before Mohammed was born, they didn't realise they were really Muslim. This you believe.
Allah turned non-believers into monkeys and pigs. This you believe.
Angels talk to people. This you believe.
Clay birds come to life and take flight. This you believe.
Mountains were created to peg the earth down. This you believe.
The moon is a lamp, producing it's own light. This you believe.
The sun revolves around the earth. This you believe.
Giving birth is easy. This you believe.
The stars were created as lamps, and as missiles to drive away demons. This you believe.
The universe was created in six days. This you believe.
The universe was created in eight days. This you believe.
I could go on, but I won't. Now talk to me about common sense.
However, moving on, you're challenging me to write a book - and you're giving me 23 years in which you do it. Now that's really funny! :o)
So, let's get this straight. Mohammed was a merchant - and a wily old merchant at that - but we won't mention the Satanic verses in detail, because that was one of his less successful ideas. Right, Mohammed was a merchant - but it's fair to say his business interests were not confined to a stall in Petticoat Lane, wouldn't you agree? If not, I suggest you read your history.
Now let's talk about common sense.
Nobody had ever heard of Islam until it was invented in the 7th century. Nevertheless, it has existed since time immemorial. This you believe.
Islam's prophets, including Jesus, and apart from Mohammed, were absolutely convinced they were Jewish, but since they lived hundreds of years before Mohammed was born, they didn't realise they were really Muslim. This you believe.
Allah turned non-believers into monkeys and pigs. This you believe.
Angels talk to people. This you believe.
Clay birds come to life and take flight. This you believe.
Mountains were created to peg the earth down. This you believe.
The moon is a lamp, producing it's own light. This you believe.
The sun revolves around the earth. This you believe.
Giving birth is easy. This you believe.
The stars were created as lamps, and as missiles to drive away demons. This you believe.
The universe was created in six days. This you believe.
The universe was created in eight days. This you believe.
I could go on, but I won't. Now talk to me about common sense.
I know Naomi you would not put another thread to ask me about all of your listed things so I decided to answer that here.
First of all Yes Muhammad was Merchant and he did not have a stall in petticoat lane. But he only travelled few times (as I said before) only to Syria. Without going into long details, you have copy of the Quran and read and let me know what sort of knowledge might have been known to people in Syria at that time out of all what is in Quran, keeping in mind that we are talking about Greeks, Indian, Persians etc. As for the knowledge from Bible, then Arabic Bible was not even available until I believe 13th century. So as he could not read or write his own language then how did he gathered all of the knowledge written in other languages. Finally when people (merchants) go on business trip where they have to travel months on camels each way they do not have enough time for other things. But then again to understand that one needs common sense.
////Allah turned non-believers into monkeys and pigs. This you believe.///
Yes I Do.
///Angels talk to people. This you believe.///
Yes they talked to “Prophets” then.
///Clay birds come to life and take flight. This you believe.///
Yes, it is an incident with Abraham (pbuh) and that can happen with the will of God as it Jesus (pbuh) gave life to dead with Gods permission.
///Mountains were created to peg the earth down. This you believe.////
Yes, and leading geologists agree with that but most probably you would not grade those geologists as you decided not to agree with Dr Keith Moor.
////The moon is a lamp, producing it's own light. This you believe.///
No, I will take that as your words. I don’t believe in that as it is written very clearly in Quran that moon’s light is reflected light. So you are wrong or are confusing Bible with Quran.
///The sun revolves around the earth. This you believe.///
No, again these are your words and I do not believe that. However I believe that Sun moves like any other planets, Science only found that recently but it is written in Quran 1400 years ago.
///Giving birth is easy. This you believe.///
It depends on in what sense? Yes it is painful and therefore Allah says in Quran that respect the womb (woman) that bore you. However my own personal opinion is that due to the hormonal changes during the birth it becomes easier than it is considered.
////The stars were created as lamps, and as missiles to drive away demons. This you believe.////
No, I do not believe that and would take as your own words. Or as your misconception as your are probably confusing Bible with Quran.
///The universe was created in six days. This you believe.///
////The universe was created in eight days. This you believe.////
You do not seem to know your own question as you have put 6 and 8 there. However I believe that yes Universe was created in 6 days. But these days are not as we know as 24 hrs. In Arabic “Youm” means period of time and there are so many other verses to clarify that.
First of all Yes Muhammad was Merchant and he did not have a stall in petticoat lane. But he only travelled few times (as I said before) only to Syria. Without going into long details, you have copy of the Quran and read and let me know what sort of knowledge might have been known to people in Syria at that time out of all what is in Quran, keeping in mind that we are talking about Greeks, Indian, Persians etc. As for the knowledge from Bible, then Arabic Bible was not even available until I believe 13th century. So as he could not read or write his own language then how did he gathered all of the knowledge written in other languages. Finally when people (merchants) go on business trip where they have to travel months on camels each way they do not have enough time for other things. But then again to understand that one needs common sense.
////Allah turned non-believers into monkeys and pigs. This you believe.///
Yes I Do.
///Angels talk to people. This you believe.///
Yes they talked to “Prophets” then.
///Clay birds come to life and take flight. This you believe.///
Yes, it is an incident with Abraham (pbuh) and that can happen with the will of God as it Jesus (pbuh) gave life to dead with Gods permission.
///Mountains were created to peg the earth down. This you believe.////
Yes, and leading geologists agree with that but most probably you would not grade those geologists as you decided not to agree with Dr Keith Moor.
////The moon is a lamp, producing it's own light. This you believe.///
No, I will take that as your words. I don’t believe in that as it is written very clearly in Quran that moon’s light is reflected light. So you are wrong or are confusing Bible with Quran.
///The sun revolves around the earth. This you believe.///
No, again these are your words and I do not believe that. However I believe that Sun moves like any other planets, Science only found that recently but it is written in Quran 1400 years ago.
///Giving birth is easy. This you believe.///
It depends on in what sense? Yes it is painful and therefore Allah says in Quran that respect the womb (woman) that bore you. However my own personal opinion is that due to the hormonal changes during the birth it becomes easier than it is considered.
////The stars were created as lamps, and as missiles to drive away demons. This you believe.////
No, I do not believe that and would take as your own words. Or as your misconception as your are probably confusing Bible with Quran.
///The universe was created in six days. This you believe.///
////The universe was created in eight days. This you believe.////
You do not seem to know your own question as you have put 6 and 8 there. However I believe that yes Universe was created in 6 days. But these days are not as we know as 24 hrs. In Arabic “Youm” means period of time and there are so many other verses to clarify that.
Keyplus, there is no confusion - all of that comes from your literature, which for you should be quite worrying, because although you claim that every single word is true, you don't believe it. There's hope for you yet!
By the way, there was no mistake in the last two on the list. I just did my sums. ;o)
By the way, there was no mistake in the last two on the list. I just did my sums. ;o)
I had been brought up in a Christian household. Father was catholic but never went to church and mother was Protestant. Myself and 2 brothers were brought up Protestant.
From the age of about 20 I questioned what I was taught with regard to certain aspects of the doctrine, such as trinity, hell and death.
When my nan died when I was 22 I couldn’t relate hell and death because to me, she was a good godfearing woman. My mother questioned the vicar as to why God brought death and she was told it was a mystery and that she would have to wait until she got to Heaven to find the answer. That did not satisfy her and she left the church. I worked with a JW and when I asked him the same question I got answers. It took a good many years of Bible study and questioning before I got satisfying answers to my questions and although I am a Christian, I do not belong to the mainstream organised religions.
Oldnitro. – The Bible tells us of a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. All those who died will have a resurrection so if they never knew God, they will have the opportunity. The Bible also tells us that the resurrection will be here on earth that has been cleansed of all wickedness so they will have a “new start” as it were.
As to hellfire – no such thing!! The Bible ‘hell’ is translated to mean ‘mankind’s common grave’. All who die go to hell even Jesus Christ was in hell (man’s grave) for 3 days.
From the age of about 20 I questioned what I was taught with regard to certain aspects of the doctrine, such as trinity, hell and death.
When my nan died when I was 22 I couldn’t relate hell and death because to me, she was a good godfearing woman. My mother questioned the vicar as to why God brought death and she was told it was a mystery and that she would have to wait until she got to Heaven to find the answer. That did not satisfy her and she left the church. I worked with a JW and when I asked him the same question I got answers. It took a good many years of Bible study and questioning before I got satisfying answers to my questions and although I am a Christian, I do not belong to the mainstream organised religions.
Oldnitro. – The Bible tells us of a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. All those who died will have a resurrection so if they never knew God, they will have the opportunity. The Bible also tells us that the resurrection will be here on earth that has been cleansed of all wickedness so they will have a “new start” as it were.
As to hellfire – no such thing!! The Bible ‘hell’ is translated to mean ‘mankind’s common grave’. All who die go to hell even Jesus Christ was in hell (man’s grave) for 3 days.
Keyplus, just to be quite clear that those examples you disagree with are not my words, as you claim:
'And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp'
'It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.'
'And We have (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with lamps,
and we have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans'.
You believe the 'magic' without question, but actually if the koran is the ultimate word of god and cannot be altered, you should have agreed with all of that. Islam has no qualms about manipulating text when it needs to make it fit the science - and neither does its adherents.
Incidentally, your opinion on childbirth is wrong - and so is Allah's.
So much for common sense.
'And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp'
'It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.'
'And We have (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with lamps,
and we have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans'.
You believe the 'magic' without question, but actually if the koran is the ultimate word of god and cannot be altered, you should have agreed with all of that. Islam has no qualms about manipulating text when it needs to make it fit the science - and neither does its adherents.
Incidentally, your opinion on childbirth is wrong - and so is Allah's.
So much for common sense.
///naomi24
Keyplus, there is no confusion - all of that comes from your literature,////
Not all of that have come from my “literature” however if you believe so then give me a ref. Prove your words now. I do not give importance to the words without a reference. So provide a ref about whatever you have said there. And I am sure these are twisted words again from those websites of yours. So let’s see. For your information once again, there is not a “SINGLE” proven scientific fact against the Quran. I can give you so many verses proving you wrong now but I am standing by my words so let’s see what you got. And for a change this thread will go as far as it goes now. So sorry to the others for changing the subject but as I always say that if questions are asked then answers must be given.
Keyplus, there is no confusion - all of that comes from your literature,////
Not all of that have come from my “literature” however if you believe so then give me a ref. Prove your words now. I do not give importance to the words without a reference. So provide a ref about whatever you have said there. And I am sure these are twisted words again from those websites of yours. So let’s see. For your information once again, there is not a “SINGLE” proven scientific fact against the Quran. I can give you so many verses proving you wrong now but I am standing by my words so let’s see what you got. And for a change this thread will go as far as it goes now. So sorry to the others for changing the subject but as I always say that if questions are asked then answers must be given.
Jomifl – Sun moves around its axis so does all other planets. Sun takes around 25 days to rotate around its axis.
For long European Philosophers and scientists believed that Erath stood still and other planets including Sun moved around it. Nicholas Copernicus In 1512, put forward Heliocentric Theory of planetary Motion. He asserted that Sun is motionless at the centre with planets revolving around it.
In 1609, the German Scientist Yohannus Keppler published “Astronomia Noca”. In this he concluded that not only do the planets move in elliptical orbits around the sun, they also rotate upon their axes at irregular speeds.
Quran said 1400 years ago,
Quran 21:33. It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
Now it does not really mean “swim”. The interpreter doing his best to describe Arabic word “Yasbahoon” and that is the motion of a moving body. Muslims say a short prayer regularly before starting any journey and that has the same word.
For long European Philosophers and scientists believed that Erath stood still and other planets including Sun moved around it. Nicholas Copernicus In 1512, put forward Heliocentric Theory of planetary Motion. He asserted that Sun is motionless at the centre with planets revolving around it.
In 1609, the German Scientist Yohannus Keppler published “Astronomia Noca”. In this he concluded that not only do the planets move in elliptical orbits around the sun, they also rotate upon their axes at irregular speeds.
Quran said 1400 years ago,
Quran 21:33. It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
Now it does not really mean “swim”. The interpreter doing his best to describe Arabic word “Yasbahoon” and that is the motion of a moving body. Muslims say a short prayer regularly before starting any journey and that has the same word.
my understanding from the translation that it is not 'swim' but float. early arabs believed that the sun and moon floated through space in a boat.
something the egyptians came up with a few years earlier. there is no original thought in the quran or bible, merely carbon copies of other fireseide stories.
http://en.wikipedia.o...barge_.2F_sun_chariot
something the egyptians came up with a few years earlier. there is no original thought in the quran or bible, merely carbon copies of other fireseide stories.
http://en.wikipedia.o...barge_.2F_sun_chariot
Keyplus, you know exactly where it comes from, and denying it won't make the truth go away.
'And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp' Koran 71
'It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.' Koran 36
'And We have (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with lamps,
and we have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans' Koran 67
//For your information once again, there is not a “SINGLE” proven scientific fact against the Quran.//
Absolute tosh! There are three there for starters. You can massage the words all you like, but I've yet to see you explain, scientifically, stars made as missiles to drive away devils!
By the way, the references haven't come from a website, but from one of my copies of the koran.
//as I always say that if questions are asked then answers must be given.//
Yes, of course you do. That's why I had to ask you to come back and answer the questions here - and that's why you said you weren't going to waste any more time with me. ;o)
'And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp' Koran 71
'It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.' Koran 36
'And We have (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with lamps,
and we have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans' Koran 67
//For your information once again, there is not a “SINGLE” proven scientific fact against the Quran.//
Absolute tosh! There are three there for starters. You can massage the words all you like, but I've yet to see you explain, scientifically, stars made as missiles to drive away devils!
By the way, the references haven't come from a website, but from one of my copies of the koran.
//as I always say that if questions are asked then answers must be given.//
Yes, of course you do. That's why I had to ask you to come back and answer the questions here - and that's why you said you weren't going to waste any more time with me. ;o)
I haven't read through the other replies.
I was brought up to believe in a God and Jesus and just accepted it. As I grew up, developed and began to reason for myself I just stopped believing. It was just natural progression. I believed in Father Christmas, the Christmas Fairy, etc. as well as a child.
I was brought up to believe in a God and Jesus and just accepted it. As I grew up, developed and began to reason for myself I just stopped believing. It was just natural progression. I believed in Father Christmas, the Christmas Fairy, etc. as well as a child.
Eventually my mother became a non believer Naomi. I don't think her generation had ever really questioned it. It was just accepted.
I don't think my parents ever told me that Father Christmas and the tooth fairy weren't real - As you grow up and reason and apply logical thought you work it out yourself.
I don't think my parents ever told me that Father Christmas and the tooth fairy weren't real - As you grow up and reason and apply logical thought you work it out yourself.
Ankou – The simple reason for all that was that people who translate Quran or any book that talks about things that has not happened yet then they use words according to their knowledge at that time and most importantly what is known widely. As they feel that people would not like if we say what no one believe even though in years to come they might have been correct. The best example for that reason is the verse in Quran that speaks about Earth being Egg shape.
The word "Daha" has a couple meanings in Arabic: to even out, to roll, to spread/extend, cause to become egg shaped. Now, the "ha" suffix means "it". So when you say "Dahaha" it translates to a few things (depending on context): Rolled it out, expanded it, evened it out, or made egg-shaped.
The word "Daha" has a couple meanings in Arabic: to even out, to roll, to spread/extend, cause to become egg shaped. Now, the "ha" suffix means "it". So when you say "Dahaha" it translates to a few things (depending on context): Rolled it out, expanded it, evened it out, or made egg-shaped.
Naomi – How many time did I say that do not go to the website and copy and paste because the websites you depend upon only give limited information because that is what they want you to know and believe.
You got this,
71:16. "'And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?
But again you forgot one before that which gives context,
71:15. "'See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,
And of course this one,
25:61. Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light;
And I am sure so far you are happy as I am proving your point that moon is giving light whereas according to you moon has no light. But again very simply you managed to misunderstand that all these verses are talking about “light” and Sun and moon do give light to this world and I am sure you can’t deny that. However then it comes to “what sort of light” and for that you need to know Arabic language again but of course website you visit do not teach that. Arabic word all over the Quran is “Shams” and “Siraj” which nearest translation in English is Torch, or lamp. Nowhere in Quran Moon has been called either of that and Moon in Arabic is “Qamar”. In simple words in English you would call everything as light but people who know basic Arabic know that when they talk about Qamar then they are talking about something shiny and reflective. So its not your fault, simply you do not know Arabic otherwise do you believe so many people who are Muslim and have mother tongue Arabic would not talk about this mistake. But they know but you don’t’. However I have no doubts that you would never agree.
36:40. It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
In simple words I can say that what is wrong with that verse and have you ever seen night after another night without a day or day after another day without being night? But then I know you do not use common sense. This verse is exactly what in science is known as Solar Apex or study Constellation of Hercules in a detail.
67:5. And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
Does science know everything about cosmology? And then your statement,
////stars made as missiles to drive away devils!///
Do you believe in Devil? Science (and you of course) “YET” do not even believe in devil either. So it is something that science has not proved or disproved yet. But I am sure if tomorrow science would agree with this part of Quran then you would find something in Greek philosophy talking about same.
Finally, please do not hold back and keep firing and I will keep explaining. Although I know it may never benefit you but of course there are others around.
You got this,
71:16. "'And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?
But again you forgot one before that which gives context,
71:15. "'See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,
And of course this one,
25:61. Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light;
And I am sure so far you are happy as I am proving your point that moon is giving light whereas according to you moon has no light. But again very simply you managed to misunderstand that all these verses are talking about “light” and Sun and moon do give light to this world and I am sure you can’t deny that. However then it comes to “what sort of light” and for that you need to know Arabic language again but of course website you visit do not teach that. Arabic word all over the Quran is “Shams” and “Siraj” which nearest translation in English is Torch, or lamp. Nowhere in Quran Moon has been called either of that and Moon in Arabic is “Qamar”. In simple words in English you would call everything as light but people who know basic Arabic know that when they talk about Qamar then they are talking about something shiny and reflective. So its not your fault, simply you do not know Arabic otherwise do you believe so many people who are Muslim and have mother tongue Arabic would not talk about this mistake. But they know but you don’t’. However I have no doubts that you would never agree.
36:40. It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
In simple words I can say that what is wrong with that verse and have you ever seen night after another night without a day or day after another day without being night? But then I know you do not use common sense. This verse is exactly what in science is known as Solar Apex or study Constellation of Hercules in a detail.
67:5. And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
Does science know everything about cosmology? And then your statement,
////stars made as missiles to drive away devils!///
Do you believe in Devil? Science (and you of course) “YET” do not even believe in devil either. So it is something that science has not proved or disproved yet. But I am sure if tomorrow science would agree with this part of Quran then you would find something in Greek philosophy talking about same.
Finally, please do not hold back and keep firing and I will keep explaining. Although I know it may never benefit you but of course there are others around.
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