How would you test whether prayer works?

[chakka35]

In a thread below Truthabounds claimed, on very flimsy grounds, that prayer works.. So how would one set up a rigorous double-blind test for the efficacy of prayer? My claim is that the problems are insuperable. Consider:

Assuming that you convene Group A who are going to be prayed for and Group B who are not...what would the prayer concern?

Would you give them all a lottery ticket for the following Saturday and pray for A to win and not pray for B – or pray for B to lose? No, no, some would say, that’s too frivolous, thus breaking the first rule of double-blind testing: that the testers must not decide in advance what will affect the results.

OK, so you pray for some ill people to recover and some not. Is that ethical? How do you ensure that they are all at the same stage of similar illnesses and how long do you allow for natural healing to take place?

How do you ensure that those not prayed for are truly not prayed for? Do you go to the families and friends of Group B and tell them not to pray for their loved ones? And do you issue an edict to all clergy not to have their general prayer for the sick to be issued until further notice?

Look, I’ve just scratched the surface of the problem. Somebody else talk for a minute..

[RATTER15]

Davethedog: "but be fair that might be a bit hard" the word "omnipotent" comes to mind!

[RATTER15]

nannybooby //why would you want to test if prayer works?//

Simply because it is a subject some people would like to discuss or find an answer.

[nannybooby]

oh a bit like what came first the chiken or the egg ? Ratters !

[Ankou]

nannybooby

if you believe in evolution then the it would be the egg,
if you believe in creationism it would be the chicken.

[RATTER15]

Actually I think you will find it was the Cockrell!!!

[Elderman]

Prayer is based on the conviction that God exists,
In the Bible he is called the “Hearer of prayer.” (Ps. 65:2)

The Bible shows that God is approachable by man. We should expect God to listen to proper prayers,
(2 Chron. 7:12-16)

It tells us that Jesus, by both word and example, showed the necessity of praying. If the Son of God recognized such need to pray, how much more do we need to do so. Matt 6:9-10

[RATTER15]

Elderman: How would you ever cope if you lost the ability to "Copy and Paste"

Do you actually think that it adds any strength to your argument by copying text from a book that we really have no belief or faith in! A bit silly realy!!

[Davethedog]

Ratter he might have off days :-)

[Old_Geezer]

One does not show any necessity by setting an example. If a deity is all-knowing then one has to ask why it needs to be asked for things it will already be aware of. and if the prayer somehow opens a "channel" for intervention in this world to occur then why would an omnipotent deity need that either?

I'm not saying it does or doesn't work, just that the need for it is unclear. I guess it might imply a generally non-intervening deity who is aware that whatever "all this" is for, it would be ruined if they stuck their oar in time and again: but who will consider requests for what in the grand scheme of things turns out to be unimportant.

[Elderman]

ratter15: //Do you actually think that it adds any strength to your argument by copying text from a book that we really have no belief or faith in! A bit silly realy!!//
Just to let you know - I do not copy & paste from a book you have no belief or faith in!!
Just shows how much you know about the Bible!!
You show me in the Bible which bits I copy & paste.
BTW I copy & paste all this.

[Truthabounds]

Chakka35:
You are absolutely stupid!
Your edicts for testing prayer are way out of line and absolutely ridiculous.
To pray you need to be praying for the right things. Winning the lottery is not one of the right things to pray for (although no doubt you will disagree). Selecting one group of sick people over another is not a Christian way of thinking.
How can you tell a priest to give priority to one group over another?
When you pray you need to be convinced that your prayer is going to be heard.
If you don’t have a belief in God, what is the point in praying? You won’t be convinced that the prayer is heard – after all God does not exist so he won’t be there to hear it!!

Naomi:
//I think Truthabounds has ... er ... bounded.//
Wrong. Contrary to popular belief and in contrast to many on here – I do have a life outside of AB. I don’t spend hours and hours on this site as I have many many other interests.

Chakka:
On the subject of prayer. It is good to be aware that some prayers can be hampered, or blocked. (Read Lamentations 3:44.) God did not listen to the prayers of the rebellious Jews because they were ‘turning their ear away from him’ and persisting in a practice of lawlessness. (Prov. 28:9) The lesson must have been clear to Jeremiah, as it should be to us: If a person fails to act in harmony with his or her prayers, that will disappoint God and can result in His ceasing to hear the prayers. Surely, that is something we should seek to avoid at all costs.

Some health experts recommend prayer as treatment for depression and stress. While it may be true that a quiet moment of prayer like reflection may relieve stress, much the same could be said about certain sounds of nature or even a back rub. True Christians do not trivialize prayer by viewing it as just a feel-good therapy. We view prayer as reverential communication with the Creator. Prayer involves our devotion to and confidence in God. Yes, prayer is part of our worship.

[Davethedog]

Truthabounds - Ever had a prayer answered?

From a scientific point of view Chakka is correct

[rowanwitch]

Actually it is meditation that is usually recommended not prayer....

The doctor who suggests prayer to anxious patients or their families is trying to tell them there is nothing more medicine can do without coming straight out with it... its just a sort of euphemism for 'no hope'

[vulcan]

Truthabounds, you say prayer is part of your worship, it's a great pity good manners isn't.

[Elderman]

shortstraw
No,for his second temptation, Satan took Jesus to a lofty spot on the temple battlement. Cleverly twisting God’s Word, Satan tempted Jesus to make a showy display by hurling himself down from that height so that angels would have to rescue him. If the crowds at the temple saw such a miracle, would anyone thereafter dare raise a doubt that Jesus was the promised Messiah? And if the crowds accepted Jesus as the Messiah on the basis of such showmanship, might Jesus not avoid a lot of hardship and trouble? Perhaps. But Jesus knew that it was God’s will for the Messiah to carry out his work in a humble manner, not to influence people to believe in him by means of spectacular displays. (Isaiah 42:1, 2) Again, Jesus refused to disobey a Fame held no lure for him.

[Truthabounds]

Vulcan42:
Don't see the relevance here!

We are talking about prayer not manners.
As to having good manners, I do have manners. I endeavour to be polite and respectful. However, there are many here who do not.

[vulcan]

And calling somebody absolutely stupid for not agreeing with you is having good manners ?

[Truthabounds]

Davethedog.
Yes, I have had many prayers answered. And the prayers have been specific to me. There was no coincidence.

[naomi24]

Elderman, //If the crowds at the temple saw such a miracle, would anyone thereafter dare raise a doubt that Jesus was the promised Messiah? And if the crowds accepted Jesus as the Messiah on the basis of such showmanship, might Jesus not avoid a lot of hardship and trouble? Perhaps. But Jesus knew that it was God’s will for the Messiah to carry out his work in a humble manner, not to influence people to believe in him by means of spectacular displays. (Isaiah 42:1, 2) Again, Jesus refused to disobey a Fame held no lure for him.//

Ha ha! How very convenient. Of course, had Jesus taken that leap, he'd have been dead. Proof positive that there were no angels to rescue him. It's a bit like Keyplus' camel story really, isn't it. Sneaky old God. He's got you all ways - and you fall for it!

//Jesus knew it was God's will//.

And why wouldn't he? He's God isn't he?

Truthabounds, Vulcan is right. You are rude. Chakka is far from stupid. In fact if you possessed just one iota of his intellect you might be capable of seeing beyond the superstitious tripe that clearly obsesses you.