Jerusalem: The making of a Holy City - BBC4

[naomi24]

I've just watched the third and final part of this excellent series that traced the history of that lovely old city throughout the ages, and culminated in its current continuing bloody religious conflict - and I just thought STOP! For the sake of humanity STOP! The Orthodox Eastern Church at odds with the Church of Rome, in turn at odds with the Protestants, and all at odds with the Jews who in turn are at odds with the Muslims - everyone at odds with everyone else - and all for nothing except the totally unsupported tripe found in ancient books! Bloody religion! What stupid futile nonsense it all is! Bloody depressing!

[jno]

if it didn't have religious importance it would be just another dusty Middle East town of no great loveliness at all. There are lots of them.

But the checkpoints and walls are to do with security, not religion. They derive from the fact that Jews were handed a homeland where other people were living, and whom they now want to keep at bay. This in turn was a response to the Holocaust, and that was a twisted form of German nationalism rather than religion.

[DTCwordfan]

It's a cesspit of sins, based on imaginary concepts that clash at the centre of their Venn of influence, and not withstanding their so called holy places. Has been and probably always will - certainly for the mid future.

Though it has its architectural virtues, the clash of religion, trade and politics has done the place, and miankind at large, no favours at all.

The only way out in the short term is to do what the UN did to Nicosia - put it and Palestine under UN rule and then slowly go to work on gradual change and improvement.

[jomifl]

Elderman, you've missed the point again, this discussion is not about the origins of the name of jerusalem, it is amongst other things about how a bunch of christians can disobey the commandments and set about one another in what could best be described as a street brawl..And these are the holy ones.

[sandyRoe]

When passions run high it's no wonder the claret sometimes get tapped. In this respect monks are no different from the rest of us.
I sometimes wonder in all the habitues of R&S ever got together who it would be who would throw the first punch.

[sandyRoe]

And who it would be aimed at.

[emmie]

sandyr, it would be a free for all, and quite frankly it's the reason i stay well away.

[sandyRoe]

It's strangely addictive. I might make it one of my new year resolutions to keep away from it.

[naomi24]

jno, your history is awry. Check out the history of Zionism - and the Balfour Declaration 1917. It's ridiculous to say this has nothing to do with religion. If there had been no 'Promised Land' the situation we have today would never have arisen. It has everything to do with religion. There is no defence. And I disagree that Jerusalem would be just another dusty Middle Eastern town with no great loveliness - but I guess my view of loveliness differs from yours. Frankly, despite its great age, what people have done to Jerusalem in the name of religion disgusts me. It has to be just about the saddest place on earth.

Elderman, you're all the same. You all think you're right. Religion is a blight on this planet and the sooner people realise that the better.

Sandy, I can guarantee I wouldn't throw the first punch - but I've no doubt I'd be on the receiving end of a few. ;o)

[sandyRoe]

You've not seen Lourdes, then?

[naomi24]

No comparison.

[jomifl]

Sandy, I live only a couple of houre drive from Lourdes, were you implying that, it is worth a visit or worth staying well clear of? Do you think that a visit might cure my chronic atheism? or is it just a lot tosh over impressionable pubescent nuns.

[jno]

I'm aware of the Balfour declaration. But nothing became of it until after WW2; and when Israel was established, the bit about not prejudicing the rights of the people who lived there seems to have been overlooked. But as with most conflicts, the issues are to do with land and power.

[naomi24]

jno, I know you defend religion at all costs, but it is quite ridiculous to deny that the problems in that area of the world stem fundamentally from religion. Why do the Jews covet that particular piece of this earth so much? Because it was allegedly 'promised' to them by their God - and nothing less would have sufficed. As I said, religion is culpable, and there is no defence.

[Ankou]

jews have religious laws that place as much emphasis on jerusalem, as mekkah does for muslims, and rome for catholics.

i do agree though that if it wasn't seen as such a valuable tri-religious asset it would be a neglected dusty dirt bowl. look at babylon.

[sandyRoe]

Jomifl,
it's tatty religious 'souvenir' shops spoil it. I was once thinking of starting a pilgrimage to Compostela from there. And might yet.
If the pubescent girls who saw the vision were playing a joke they paid a heavy price. To be guided into a convent when you're barely into your teens seems a dreadful fate.

[jomifl]

Hi Sandy, We have a catholic neighbour who thinks Lourdes is wonderful and has said we ought to go there notwithstanding that I am an atheist and my wife is a bhuddist. I think we will give it a miss as I might become militant. If you ever do decide to do 'El Camino' and start a bit further into France then do call in as our house opens onto the 'route de compostelle', it is however a long walk fom us to St. Jean Pied de Porte. :-)

[naomi24]

I think we're getting away from the point I was making here - which is the utter futility of religion. None of it can be supported, it creates separation and hatred - but the religious don't contest it because they 'know' they're right. Well, they don't. The whole thing is potty.

[jomifl]

Apologies Naomi for using your thread like chattrerbank, I have reprimaded myself and said 20 gazillion hail mary's (the apostrohe is deliberate)

[naomi24]

Ha ha! I would have said Hail Mary's what?

[sandyRoe]

Full of Grace
The LOrd is with thee
Blessed is the fruit of thy womb...
And so on. You could google it.