Do you think you can cheat God?

[naomi24]

Pascal’s Wager, in short, states that:

**a man has everything to gain and nothing to lose by believing in God, and everything to lose and nothing to gain by not believing in God. On these grounds, one would be foolish not to believe.** (**-** Copied from the internet).

So, according to that, Pascal’s faith wasn’t genuine – but more importantly, he rather stupidly overlooked the fact that God is, allegedly, omniscient, and would therefore be aware of this devious ploy.

Many of the religious here appear to have no hesitation in trumpeting their piety and their good deeds, whilst at the same time often vilifying their fellow man, and in particular those who don’t believe as the religious claim to. In my understanding of Christianity, all of that seems rather contrary to Christ’s teachings. However, it now appears that one self-proclaimed Christian here is, in fact, taking the path of Pascal’s Wager, and I wonder just how many others are secretly following suit– and if so, if it transpires that God does indeed exist, do they really think they are capable of cheating him?

[mike11111]

Oh, for F**ks sake, woman, have you absolutely no sense of humour whatsoever? I do not need to look up the word homeopath as I have an A level in Classical Greek, which renders an English dictionary superfluous in this case.

[mibn2cweus]

No homoeopath has ever told me I'm going to hell.

[naomi24]

I have a wonderful sense of humour, Mike. Congratulations. ;o)

[mibn2cweus]

"No sense of humour" . . . them's fightin' words! ;o)

[naomi24]

Persuasive too. Good argument. ;o)

[humbersloop]

Thanks Naomi. My - perhaps clumsy -point was many don't have the luxury of a debate on Pascal's wager. For the rest, I really wouldn't know where to start: great though it is, it probabaly wouldn' t be AB.

[vivandorron]

I admit that I am unable to comprehend fully, Pascal's Wager. Consequently, I am thinking that there is a suggestion of one 'Hedging a bet' or outlaying on some form of 'Insurance cover'. :-)

Ron.

[naomi24]

Humbersloop, none of us can cure the ills of the world, but personally I think there’s nothing to lose and much to gain in highlighting and discussing those ills.

Ron, That’s exactly it. Hedging your bets – in effect, believing that if you ultimately discover that a God does, indeed, exist, you will be accepted by him as one of the faithful because you have somehow avoided being trapped by his powers of omniscience, and outwitted him. I suspect that many who claim religion and advertise their piety along with their good deeds do it not only because they think it’s their pass into heaven, but also to impress other human beings. However, in my opinion, genuine kindness and goodwill comes from a genuinely good and kind heart. If it transpires that there is a God, and the rules that we’re told apply actually do apply, then I would imagine that some of these people are going to be very sadly disappointed - because rather than polishing their halos and taking up harp lessons, they’ll end up frizzling and frying for eternity with those damned atheists. ;o)

[sandyRoe]

God is a creature of such all encompassing love that he could see through deceit and still allow good people, and by that I don't mean religious people, into the Heavenly kingdom.
Never fear, Naomi, I believe that I will yet see you, Ratter, Vestute, DT Fan, Viv& Ron, Humber, and all the rest of the vociferous atheists in the ranks of a Heavenly choir some happy day.

[sandyRoe]

* I don't mean ONLY religious people...
Not a Freudian slip, a typo, there.

[seadogg]

The motivation of an individual in applying Pascal's Wager is immaterial. Nobody knows better than "God" that humans are fallible and irrational by nature.Therefore "He" can hardly punish them for having such dodgy motives. Calvin believed in "justification by faith" but I doubt he questioned the underlying motives of such Faith.

[seadogg]

I think you pre-empted my argument while I was typing you old fox, Sandy lol.

[jomifl]

Of course if the devil exists and god doesn't a lot of people are in deep sh1t. That is why I don't gamble.
If god is omnipotent as well as omniscient then you cannot deceive him or act against his will so just be yourself as you must be how he wanted you to be. If god is not as described then just be yourself, particularly if you are a basically good person.

[humbersloop]

^^^^^ a kind thought Sandy, though only likely to come to pass if the heavenly choir has a "can't carry a tune for toffee" section...;-)

[sandyRoe]

On his deathbed Beethoven, who was as deaf as a post, is reputed to have said: 'I shall hear in Heaven'. Who knows, we may all be able to sing as sweetly as songbirds when we join the Heavenly choir.

[jake-the-peg]

Yes Sandy and there will be no such thing as sin there

Oh hang on I thought that sin was a consequence of our free will!

That doesn't bode well does it? Singing sweetly without free will

[keyplus90]

No, you can't cheat God. The only thing you do is believe that you have cheated God where in reality you have cheated your own self. Otherwise what is the question?

Just take Pascal's example. By believing for the sake of as he puts it, you are cheating your own other belief that it may not exist. Because it would not make any difference to the existence of God whatsoever but only to the way you changed of modified your thinking. I will give you Atheist’s favourite example. Say I believe that tooth fairy exists. What difference that would make to the tooth fairy? It would not just appear in front of me only because I decided to believe that it exists. It will only change the way I believe. But I am sure you will not understand it.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, you’ve missed the point of the question. It isn’t aimed at confirmed atheists – it’s aimed at those who claim religion – but may not be quite so religious as they’d like others to think they are.

[jomifl]

Keyplus, If I may quote your reference to the tooth fairy
'It would not just appear in front of me only because I decided to believe that it exists'
You have inadvertantly hit the nub of the question ( not this one a bigger one) Please let me know if you have spotted where this is going.

[humbersloop]

Keyplus,

//I will give you Atheist’s favourite example. Say I believe that tooth fairy exists.//

Alright then, I believe the tooth fairy exists. Although I don't see how gratuitously dragging someone into an argument who isn't here to defend themselves takes the discussion any further forward.