Reason

[naomi24]

If an atheist is asked why he has no belief in a supernatural God, he will usually offer a rational reason, but if a believer is asked why he believes in a supernatural god, he has no rational reason at all. How can anyone believe anything without reason?

[jomifl]

Keyplus, here is your chance to convert all atheists to believers, just get your god to give you proof that he exists. If he can't do that he must be a very small god, perhaps as small as a Higgs boson.

[keyplus90]

Evidence Naomi will accept = rational evidence

and

Rational evidence = what Naomi will accept as rational

End of rationality. How many time I said that for few people rationality does not go beyond their nose. Wish you good luck.

[jomifl]

Mike, even irrational evidence is evidence of something, even if only of irrationality.

[Old_Geezer]

I've not found proof of a pink carrot, but I've not looked for any either. I refuse to consider the issue of hypothetical pink carrots.

[Ellipsis]

naomi24, you treat the lack of evidence that deities exist as being more compelling than the lack of evidence that deities do not exist. Yet there is insufficient evidence either way. The only "rational" position for anyone to hold is agnostic. Atheism is just as "irrational" as belief. You don't know whether a god exists or not, yet you choose to assert that one doesn't - hardly scientific ...

[naomi24]

Mike, //Surely that which is irrational is, by definition, not evidence of any kind.//

I agree, and if I were you, I should take that argument up with the religious.

Ellipses, //you treat the lack of evidence that deities exist as being more compelling than the lack of evidence that deities do not exist.//

That’s because it is more compelling. There is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of supernatural deities. As for agnosticism, that is also a consideration without foundation.

You Ellipses, have told me //you can be a believer without evidence, and you can be agnostic without evidence//, but you haven’t told me how you rationalise that, so can someone please answer my question?

How can anyone believe anything without reason?

[Ellipsis]

> That’s because it is more compelling

... in your opinion. In my opinion, you've made an irrational statement there.

> As for agnosticism, that is also a consideration without foundation.

Of course it isn't. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown or unknowable. Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the difference between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief. In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively. In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist.

Note the word "rational" in that last sentence ...

[Ellipsis]

Oh, and the word "reason" ...

[naomi24]

Ellipses, thank you, but I know what ‘agnosticism’ means.

//That’s because it is more compelling//

//you've made an irrational statement there.//

Why irrational? In the absence of evidence, it is logical to acknowledge that there is no evidence.

[Ellipsis]

It's irrational because human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist.

[naomi24]

^^ Now THAT's irrational.

[jomifl]

Ellipsis, can you support that statement with a rational argument?

[naomi24]

I wish someone would answer my question.

[sandyRoe]

Old_Geezer, because you do not believe in the existence of pink carrots does not mean that they do not actually exist.

http://www.google.co....QsAQ&biw=1647&bih=937

[jomifl]

God does exist after all (on google)
http://www.google.co....xX7T6SCN8rF0QXcsPiqBw

[mike11111]

Forgive me for saying this, Naomi, but you tend to adopt a very short-sighted attitude. Suppose for the sake of argument that everyone took on board your rationalistic, limited view of the cosmos, wherein anything which cannot be evidenced to the satisfaction of the limited human mind is deemed erroneous. Suppose further that the aforementioned agreed with you hook line and sinker, to the extent that all became atheist and supernatural religion of whatsoever kind no longer figured.
Great, you might think, until you reflect that without God there will be no R&S thread on AB, thus seriously compromising your chances of boring the t!ts off those who do not share your opinions.

[naomi24]

Mike, forgive you for saying that? Come on, you don't really mean that, do you? ;o)

[jomifl]

Mike1111, you are being a little naive in your understanding of the title 'religion and spirituality'.Even assuming that religion depends upon the existence of a deity ( they all seem to do quite well without one) spirituality still remains for those who aren't forbidden by their beliefs from tackling the subject.

[jomifl]

//agree with, hook line and sinker// a bit of a mixed metaphor ?

[David H]

I don't think they can, that's one of the weaknesses of the human mind. Some people are beyond this state more or less but the majority will not yet accept reason over emotion, and our politicians know that and exploit it to the extreme in the same way as religions have since the beginning. There is a separate phenomenon where things are witnessed spontaneously which come and go and often only experienced by individuals so can't convey to others anyhow, and these are not a lack of reason but a lack of visible evidence, which is quite different. These situations certainly point to at least a realm of the supernatural, but whether that is enough to assume a god is another story. You can have one without the other, just imagine someone seeing a TV set 1000 years ago for example. That would seem like magic but totally man made using the current knowledge of science. Quantum physics is now finding more and more phenomena previously thought impossible, and no doubt will eventually be seen at all levels above the quantum. But still no inference of god.