Why should I be punished for using my noddle?

[chakka35]

I may have asked this before. If so, it was some years ago and we have fresh posters now. So here goes:

A central tenet of Christianity is that ‘they that believeth in him [Jesus] shall be saved’. I don’t believe in him. So two questions for Christians:

1.From what will you be saved and that I won’t?

2.Since my non-belief has been arrived at honestly and sincerely, using the intellect that evolution (you would say God) has given me, what have I done for which I should be punished by not being saved?

You’ll understand, of course, that I am not at all worried about my fate since I think the whole thing is nonsense anyway, but I’d like to know how Christians view the obvious unfairness of this idea, not to says its amorality.

[vetuste_ennemi]

They are being saved from death. Death was brought into the world by Adam's disobedience. God became man in order to sacrifice His perfect life as a blood sacrifice which would pay the price for the sin Adam committed and which all of Adam's descendants have inherited along with the consequences of sin which is death. The imperfect animal sacriifices of the Israelites prefigured this "ransom". The money has been put up; we no longer have to die. It's not a monetary transaction as such, rather a substitution: I've sinned and ought to die, but some innocent person has jumped in and offered to take the rap for me. There is a compelling logic to it if you have suffient imaginative power and moral uncertainty. Google the key words Goel, Azazel, Redemption and Atonement.
The catch is this: "He who believeth in me shall not die but have everlasting life". Implying that those who don't won't. This makes it difficult for those people with sinful pride who boast about their noddle. "God hath taken the foolish thing of this world to put the wise to shame".

[woofgang]

Can't answer as a member of a christian church but there's a logical fallacy there. Saying they that believe shall be saved DOESN'T state that those who don't wont, although it may be read as implying that.

[rojash]

"This makes it difficult for those people with sinful pride who boast about their noddle."

I think if you re-read chakka35's post you'll find that there is no boasting involved:
"using the intellect that evolution (you would say God) has given me".

Good news for chakka, I guess, as he can be saved after all.

[mibn2cweus]

Don't be caught on judgement day thinking with the wrong noodle - http://qgeek.files.wo...s.com/2008/07/fsm.jpg

[beso]

To me beleiveth is a lesser version of believe like truish is a lesser version of true.

So I'll be right. I am happy to believeth. I just don't believe.

[beso]

One day religion will be forced to issue a product disclosure statement to anyone who wants to get involved.

[chakka35]

Thank you for the sermon, vetuste. Now try to answer my question.

[vetuste_ennemi]

It’s all about humility, Rojash: “Unless you become as little children you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven”. “Seek and ye will find”. “Knock and I will take you in”.

[beso]

^^ Like little children who fight over toys and get angry when they need to go to sleep?

[rojash]

"It’s all about humility, Rojash"
Yes, you already mentioned that, thanks.

[chakka35]

vetuste, it contributes nothing to the discussion to mouth quotes at us.

Is there an intelligent Christian who understands my question and can answer it?

[vetuste_ennemi]

I wasn't attempting to answer the 2nd question, Chakka, only the first. I have a perfect defence to your last charge: I am not an intelligent Christian. I do hope you find one.

[Old_Geezer]

I'm no expert but have always assumed the "saving" part was to save you from either oblivion, no longer having existence, or possibly the threat of eternal torment in some kind of hell.

Why should you not be punished ? Are you something special that you should be treated in what you consider fairly ?

Morality is something put together by humans. It may be no concern to a deity.

[Old_Geezer]

It occurs to me that nature and evolution has no concern for fairness nor morality.

[naomi24]

Oh, for heaven's sake don't use your noddle, Chakka. Don'tcha know it's against the rules. ;o)

[wildwood]

Not sure if the christian principles have changed but was I was a lad I was taught that God is so good and forgiving that if a bad person (even a murderer) confessed their sins and pledged their soul to Jesus before they popped clogs clogs, they would still be welcomed to the kingdom of heaven.

The only reason I went to church every morning is that we would be allowed in the school half hour earlier to have our breakfast - no eating before communion - and the rest of the kids would be outside in the freezing cold. ☺

[jake-the-peg]

vetuste - serious question because I've never understood thi part of Christian doctrine

//God became man in order to sacrifice His perfect life as a blood sacrifice which would pay the price for the sin Adam committed //

Who is Jesus/God making a sacrifice to?

Who is demanding this blood sacrifice?

It almost sounds as if there is a higher God, an old fashioned Zeus like one angry and demanding appeasement.

[Truthabounds]

As might be expected in a world that thinks too highly of human philosophy, there are many views regarding human salvation. There are, for example, religious persons that think belief in Jesus Christ is practically all that is necessary for salvation. Some of their preachers can be heard from time to time urging people, in a highly emotional manner, to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Once a person is thus “saved” he is thought to be always “saved.” He is considered as having gained salvation and need never fear about losing it. What he is thought to have been saved from is the fiery hell that the unsaved or lost ones are thought to be headed for.

Then there are persons that become a bit confused by the different views on salvation and often develop a theory of their own. They conclude that as long as a person leads a good life and does not harm his neighbor, that is all that is required for salvation. They think that God expects nothing more from them.

And then we have those that reject man’s need for salvation. In their eyes the shedding of Christ’s blood as a ransom sacrifice had no value. Not only is this view held by atheists but also by persons that claim to be Christians.

However, whatever reason people feel that they need to enter heaven will be useless. Heaven is not for humankind. It is a spiritual place already occupied by spiritual creatures, namely angels. And in no way can humankind be classed as angels.

[vetuste_ennemi]

To God, Jake. He demands it. “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.” Heb 9:22. “ And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living” Gen 8:20-21.
Zeus was a false god.

[jake-the-peg]

OK so you're sayin that God demanded a blood sacrifice which he then paid in the shape of himself as Jesus.

A bit like a judge sentencing a vandal to community service and then going out and doing that community service himself?