Why attribute anything to the God of Abraham?

[naomi24]

Down to basics here. The only record we presume we have of his existence is the Bible – and since that book is full of contradictions, it follows that, as evidence, it must be unreliable. So why?

[vetuste_ennemi]

You’re showing a very un-Goodlife willingness to actually argue your point, Truthabounds. Respect.
Two points. Firstly, the Bible as literary masterpiece. Surely one would need to know the original Hebrew and Greek to read and assess all 60 odd books of OT&NT in order to make that judgment? Some translations might be classified as great literature (I would include the AV in that category, but certainly not the NW version). As an aside, why do JWs accept the biblical canon decided by a committee assembled by a Pope in the 2nd or 3rd century AD?
The second more substantial point is this: most critics of the Bible (certainly those on the AB R&S threads) are so not mainly because of its real or apparent contradictions, but because of its morality. For instance, have you read Joshua and Samuel 1&2 - at all, let alone “in depth”? If you have how do you justify what you read? That’s the OT. Now let’s get on to the NT. Its central theme is that man is a fallen being who can be redeemed only by blood sacrifice (according to JWs that of a perfect man, according to most other Christian sects that of God become man). I find this doctrine barbarous, even more so than the slaughter of animals as sin offerings ordained by the Pentateuch which St. Paul tells us prefigured the death of Christ. I can see how superstitious, cruel and ignorant men could have invented this doctrine, but can’t begin to imagine how a supreme moral being could have come up with the notion? Can you explain where I’m going wrong, please?

[Truthabounds]

Naomi@ I am not agreeing to there being contradictions. You said there were and I asked you to give me some so I could show you that they were not contradictions.

Vestute@
For a start the Bible is not two books, the OT and the NT. It is actually one book the difference being that part was written in Hebrew and part in Greek, these being the prevailing languages at the time of writing.

The Bible has one theme running through - that of God's Kingdom. It begins with the first prophecy and points to the one who will finally remove the one causing the wickedness on the earth. Do you know what the first prophecy was and to whom it points?

You say it is barbaric. But as you look around the earth today, would you agree that some of the things done by man are barbaric?

God's original purpose was not for man to live 70 + years and then die. Man was not intended to grow old, get sick, or even to fight each other. We were intended to live forever in perfect health on a perfect, paradaisic earth.

Had things worked out as God originally purposed we would not be having this discussion, there would have been no reason for Jesus Christ to come to earth and there would be no Satan the Devil to pervert the minds of people against the Almighty God & Sovereign of the Universe.

The apostle Paul tells us “The god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.”—2 Corinthians 4:4, King James Version.

Are you a vegetarian? If not, why is the slaughter of animals barbaric? You eat their flesh. If you are a vegetarian I can understand why you think this. However, when the sacrifice called for the slaughter of an animal, the flesh did not get wasted, after the blood was poured out the animal was eaten by the people. The pouring out of the blood before the alter was for a specific purpose.

I have to go now but no doubt on my return there will be further comment.

[jackthehat]

<<God's original purpose was not for man to live 70 + years and then die. Man was not intended to grow old, get sick, or even to fight each other. We were intended to live forever in perfect health on a perfect, paradaisic earth. >>

Gosh, it would have been a bit crowded by now, wouldn't it?

[beso]

TrythAbounds //However, when the sacrifice called for the slaughter of an animal, the flesh did not get wasted, after the blood was poured out the animal was eaten by the people.//

Wrong. Read your Bible. The sacrifice for atoning sins demands the flesh be burnt to a char because God likes the smell of burning flesh and specifically insists that none of it be eaten by anyone.

The real bullsh1t is that the death of the innocent animal is supposed to atone for the sins of its owner.

[jomifl]

Truthabounds, much as you do not like the idea the bible is indeed 2 books. The OT is the history of the Jews, related in a slightly laundered, over dramatised and self regarding way. The NT is an account of the life and death of jesus based on accounts from witnesses selected by an all male committee. That is why each book has a separate and different title.

[naomi24]

Truthabounds, since you will tell me that the words do not mean what they say there’s little point in giving you examples of contradictions. I will simply ask you why the words you like mean what they say, and those you don’t like ….. don’t?

//Had things worked out as God originally purposed we would not be having this discussion,//

Oops! There goes his omniscience again.

[jomifl]

And his omnipotence too since he didn't know what he wouldn't be able to do.
I suppose god must have told truthabounds what his original purpose was when they were having one of their cosy chats. It seems that god's powers of communiation haven't diminished :-)

[Truthabounds]

Jomifl@
You give the impression of being an intelligent person, however on some points you are ignorant.

There is no valid basis for the Hebrew and Aramaic Scriptures to be called the “Old Testament” and for the Christian Greek Scriptures to be called the “New Testament.” Jesus Christ himself referred to the collection of sacred writings as “the Scriptures.”

There are three components of the Old Testament these being (1) Relevant history, (2) upbuilding poetry, and (3) faith-inspiring prophecy,

The first 17 books, Genesis to Esther, embody a historical record of God’s dealings with man from his creation until the fifth century B.C.E. The Christian apostle Paul wrote: “Now these things [as written in the Old Testament(as you call it)] went on befalling them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us [Christians] upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived.”—1 Corinthians 10:11.

The next five books, from Job to The Song of Solomon, are the poetic books.

The last 17 books, Isaiah to Malachi, are prophetic books. They contain the proclamations of the ancient Hebrew prophets and provide vivid descriptions of the earthly coming of the Messiah centuries in advance.

[naomi24]

Truthabounds, //There is no valid basis for the Hebrew and Aramaic Scriptures to be called the “Old Testament” and for the Christian Greek Scriptures to be called the “New Testament.” Jesus Christ himself referred to the collection of sacred writings as “the Scriptures.”//

That’s rather ill thought-out, if I may say so. Jesus knew nothing of the New Testament. It was non-existent at that time, and therefore there is a valid basis for distinction.

[RATTER15]

Truthabounds, if you want to see all the contradictions just Google "Bible Contradictions" their are many many sites for you to browse through but of course you would never accept them, you will just try to find a way to explain them away. Total nonsense!!!!!

[NOX]

Actually at the risk of doing a ' Goodlife' and copy and pasting- here's a few to get you started Truthabounds...
1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12

[NOX]

I particularly like this one-

God is not a man, that he should lie
- Numbers 23:19

And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the
Lord have deceived that prophet.
- Ezekiel 24:9

[Truthabounds]

Beso@
True, some sacrifices were burnt offerings. But not all. There were different sacrifices for different occasions. The sacrifices commanded under the Law covenant all pointed forward to Jesus Christ and his sacrifice or to benefits that flow from that sacrifice.

Communion offerings denoted peace with God. The worshiper and his household partook together with priests. The officiating priest received a portion, and the priests on duty, another portion. Jehovah, in effect, received the pleasing smoke of the burning fat. The blood, representing the life, was given to God as his. Therefore the priests, the worshipers, and Jehovah were as if together at the meal, signifying peaceful relationships.

Not all sacrifices were animals. There were also grain offerings and drink offerings.

All the offerings and sacrifices that were made to God under the Mosaic Law were a way of worshipping God and recognizing him as the Sovereign of the universe.

So I suggest you go back and read your Bible again.

[Truthabounds]

Ratter@
Of course there will be loads of sites offering contradictions. But there are no contradictions and if anyone with commonsense looked at the cross references in most Bibles you will find that there are explanations.

[NOX]

But you said that you would explain them to us Truthabounds- I've found 598 contradictions and I want to know, poor savage heathen that I am from your own lips- you did say YOU would explain them to us, why we're mistaken and not you. I thought it was a tall order.

[naomi24]

Truthabounds, I get the distinct impression that you're ignoring me. Why would that be?

[Truthabounds]

Nox@

Just to answer your last scriptures in your penultimate comment.
“God is not a man that he should tell lies, neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret. Has he himself said it and will he not do it, and has he spoken and will he not carry it out?”—Num. 23:19.
These divinely inspired words spoken by Balaam show that Jehovah God does not regret in the manner that humans do. We may misjudge matters or err in other ways and, therefore, have feelings of regret. The Most High, however, never makes a mistake. see also Psalm 89 v 35 and Titus 1 v 2.


As to your Ezekiel scripture, I think you have the wrong one here. It has nothing to do with lies.
(a copy & paste here)

’ 9 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Woe to the city of deeds of bloodshed! I myself also shall make the pile great."

Genesis 9 v 25 is Noah speaking - Not God. Noah cursed his grandson Canaan because of some act of abuse or perversion.

Exodus 20 v 5 Each individual, after reaching an age of responsibility, is judged on the basis of his own conduct and attitude. (Compare Ezekiel 18:20.) However, when the nation of Israel later turned to idolatry, it suffered the evil consequences of this for generations thereafter. Faithful ones were not personally punished for the nation’s sin, although they did feel some effects of it.

Romans 9 v 11 - 13 The view that God’s exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite and that he does foreordain the course and destiny of all individuals is known as predestinarianism. Accordingly for him not to foreknow all matters in their minutest detail would show imperfection. Examples such as the case of Isaac’s twin sons, Esau and Jacob, are presented as evidence of God’s foreordaining creatures before their birth.

Matthew 13 v 12 The majority of the people in Jesus’ day enjoyed listening to him as a wonderful storyteller, as he seemed to them. But they did not want to be disturbed in their view of things or way of life. Jesus’ method of teaching by illustrations served as a test under which they failed, resulting in losing even what information and opportunities they had. As Jesus said: “Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.”

When reading what appear to be contradictions, it is no use taking the verse on its own, you need to look at the context.

This is very similar to what is happening today with press reports etc. Reporters often take out of context one or two sentences and it gives a different result to what was actually said.

[Truthabounds]

Naomi@ How could I possibly ignore you?
I am trying to research, and work at the same time. I am not superhuman you know.

Jesus was the Son of God, he was in the Heavens from the beginning of Creation. He knew and accepted his role in God's purpose. He was fully aware of what was going to happen and although the Greek scriptures were not written at the time, he knew the Hebrew scriptures and what they pointed to.

God’s Word needs no revision. Nevertheless, “the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” (Proverbs 4:18) By adding the Christian Greek Scriptures to the Bible canon, God shed increased light upon the outworking of his purpose without diminishing the value of the Hebrew Scriptures. They are all part of “the saying of Jehovah that endures forever.”—1 Peter 1:24, 25.

[naomi24]

Truthabounds, //he was in the Heavens from the beginning of Creation. //

There you are. A perfect example. That's something from the New Testament that your people have interpreted to suit their purpose. Jesus is nowhere to be found in the story of the creation.