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A theologian answers the usual atheist arguments
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I have joined this site today to contribute to the believers/non believers discussions in this section. I would like to present a counter balance to some of the atheists arguments against religious beliefs. There is a book written by a theologian to answer many of the same things said on here - religion breeds violence, religious people are less intelligent than non believers, religious faith is irrational etc
It makes interesting reading. Here is a brief summary of the book:
http
I am interested to find out what the resident atheists think of Father Williams' answers to their arguments.
It makes interesting reading. Here is a brief summary of the book:
http
I am interested to find out what the resident atheists think of Father Williams' answers to their arguments.
Answers
Straw man discussion
This has some merit, there is much good in religion however I'd refer you to Stephen Weinberg's observation:
Without religion good people would still do good things, bad people would do bad things but for good people to do bad things - that takes religion.
It would be wrong to suggest that the lunatic fringe represents all...
This has some merit, there is much good in religion however I'd refer you to Stephen Weinberg's observation:
Without religion good people would still do good things, bad people would do bad things but for good people to do bad things - that takes religion.
It would be wrong to suggest that the lunatic fringe represents all...
12:16 Fri 30th Nov 2012
Latypov63, //I just wonder why they are constantly drawn to a forum about religion.//
You’ve been told why, but you appear to have ignored it.
From me at 13.07: //Few atheists object to people believing anything they want to believe – but they do object, and rightly so, when someone else’s belief either affects them, or has a detrimental effect upon those unable to reject its influence and make free choices.//
//There is little respect for anyone posting anything bordering on belief in a religion on a so called Religion and Spirituality Thread.//
Statements such as //As far as I am concerned the Catholic church is one of the most evil organizations in the world. // cannot be construed as an attack on the messenger – there is no specific messenger. It’s simply a frank criticism of the message.
//Tolerance? I think not.// Are you saying you expect unqualified respect for religious beliefs? If so, you’ve come to the wrong place.
You’ve been told why, but you appear to have ignored it.
From me at 13.07: //Few atheists object to people believing anything they want to believe – but they do object, and rightly so, when someone else’s belief either affects them, or has a detrimental effect upon those unable to reject its influence and make free choices.//
//There is little respect for anyone posting anything bordering on belief in a religion on a so called Religion and Spirituality Thread.//
Statements such as //As far as I am concerned the Catholic church is one of the most evil organizations in the world. // cannot be construed as an attack on the messenger – there is no specific messenger. It’s simply a frank criticism of the message.
//Tolerance? I think not.// Are you saying you expect unqualified respect for religious beliefs? If so, you’ve come to the wrong place.
@Laty - And there was me attempting to be polite to a new poster, and all I get back is personal abuse.
Disappointing really.
You make this statement.
"That we all ended up on earth living and breathing and reproducing is highly unlikely to have been completely random IMHO."
The clue is in the IMHO - what you think is opinion, not fact. And you are perfectly entitled to hold to that belief, but what you are not entitled to do is to claim that opinion as fact.
And whilst we are at it - IMHO means - In My Humble Opinion - But being humble means being modest, not being arrogant and prideful - And to hold that your opinion has more worth, is more valid than others, to assert such opinion as fact without evidence is both arrogant and prideful.
You do not have the faintest idea of what constitutes spirituality. We have something called a mind, capable of abstract thought, and the mind can appreciate the "otherness" of the universe around them. Being religious does not confer an extra sense, or an extra depth to your perceptions -but it does seem to give you licence to insult, it seems......
Disappointing really.
You make this statement.
"That we all ended up on earth living and breathing and reproducing is highly unlikely to have been completely random IMHO."
The clue is in the IMHO - what you think is opinion, not fact. And you are perfectly entitled to hold to that belief, but what you are not entitled to do is to claim that opinion as fact.
And whilst we are at it - IMHO means - In My Humble Opinion - But being humble means being modest, not being arrogant and prideful - And to hold that your opinion has more worth, is more valid than others, to assert such opinion as fact without evidence is both arrogant and prideful.
You do not have the faintest idea of what constitutes spirituality. We have something called a mind, capable of abstract thought, and the mind can appreciate the "otherness" of the universe around them. Being religious does not confer an extra sense, or an extra depth to your perceptions -but it does seem to give you licence to insult, it seems......
Naomi, Why should a Religion & spirituality section of a website respect christian beliefs. ???? There is a dominance on here of people who variously state, quite wildly that Christians are trying to impose their beliefs on them. Not trye, That people with faith are deluded etc. And now in last hour I am expected to understand that humans dont actually have souls. I have heard it all. I saw what went on here as a dialogue. Have now witnessed it for myself. Anything outside of the cosy atheist world of we know best and you are stupid is dismissed. I honestly feel sorry for you all.
Latypov63, //Why should a Religion & spirituality section of a website respect christian beliefs. ????//
I have no idea, but it’s your question, so perhaps you will do us the courtesy of answering it.
//There is a dominance on here of people who variously state, quite wildly that Christians are trying to impose their beliefs on them.//
Christians are not just trying to impose their beliefs – they do impose their beliefs – so not wild at all. Our laws are influenced by unelected bishops sitting in the House of Lords, and how many families are reduced to a life of abject poverty simply because the Catholic church condemns the use of effective birth control – and tells those people that they reject that command at their peril? Where is the humanity? Where is the compassion? Where is the Christian love we hear so much about? Non-existent.
You very clearly misunderstand atheism, possibly because you mistakenly deem atheism a ‘belief’ system, and hence you tar all atheists with the same brush. Much to the chagrin of most of my esteemed colleagues here, I actually think it’s possible that the ‘soul’ does exist, but having said that, if it does, I have no reason to believe it has any connection to religion or to your God.
Atheists neither seek nor need your sympathy, but if you consider yourself to be a thinking man, as I presume you do, then be honest enough to acknowledge that at the very least atheists have the wherewithal to examine the available evidence with a clear eye and without a pre-existing agenda, and to think outside of that all-confining and intellectually suffocating prison that is religion.
I have no idea, but it’s your question, so perhaps you will do us the courtesy of answering it.
//There is a dominance on here of people who variously state, quite wildly that Christians are trying to impose their beliefs on them.//
Christians are not just trying to impose their beliefs – they do impose their beliefs – so not wild at all. Our laws are influenced by unelected bishops sitting in the House of Lords, and how many families are reduced to a life of abject poverty simply because the Catholic church condemns the use of effective birth control – and tells those people that they reject that command at their peril? Where is the humanity? Where is the compassion? Where is the Christian love we hear so much about? Non-existent.
You very clearly misunderstand atheism, possibly because you mistakenly deem atheism a ‘belief’ system, and hence you tar all atheists with the same brush. Much to the chagrin of most of my esteemed colleagues here, I actually think it’s possible that the ‘soul’ does exist, but having said that, if it does, I have no reason to believe it has any connection to religion or to your God.
Atheists neither seek nor need your sympathy, but if you consider yourself to be a thinking man, as I presume you do, then be honest enough to acknowledge that at the very least atheists have the wherewithal to examine the available evidence with a clear eye and without a pre-existing agenda, and to think outside of that all-confining and intellectually suffocating prison that is religion.
latypov #If we are created than there must be a creator, and this entity would be interested in their creation.#
I will accept your hypothesis if you answer this question.
If there must be a Creator as you claim then please tell me who/what created your Creator and whilst you are at it who/what created him/it?
May I remind you Atheism is not a religion nor a philosophy .
An empty glass is empty . I don't have to prove it's empty . It's up to you to prove it's not.
God does not exist . Now you prove we Atheists are wrong by a simple test that we realists can use.
Im not interested in screeds of biblical man written text. All that illustrates is the extent of man's imagination .
I will accept your hypothesis if you answer this question.
If there must be a Creator as you claim then please tell me who/what created your Creator and whilst you are at it who/what created him/it?
May I remind you Atheism is not a religion nor a philosophy .
An empty glass is empty . I don't have to prove it's empty . It's up to you to prove it's not.
God does not exist . Now you prove we Atheists are wrong by a simple test that we realists can use.
Im not interested in screeds of biblical man written text. All that illustrates is the extent of man's imagination .
Presupposing the existence of a divine creator of existence is not merely a denial of the law of causality, it's an attempt to reverse it through the absurd assumption that the end somehow provided (after the fact) the means by which it came to be, that effects are not invariably the result of but can somehow be antecedent to that which caused them.
The belief that God exists is confirmation that one has abandoned the process of reason whereby the existence of such entity is proven to be a logical absurdity, a belief based solely on the hope that what one refuses to consider might not be can until such time be anything other than a preferred delusion.
The belief that God exists is confirmation that one has abandoned the process of reason whereby the existence of such entity is proven to be a logical absurdity, a belief based solely on the hope that what one refuses to consider might not be can until such time be anything other than a preferred delusion.
<< That we all ended up on earth living and breathing and reproducing is highly unlikely to have been completely random IMHO>>
I’ve read the summary of Father Williams’ book (and ordered it from Amazon), Latypov. Back to that in a minute. Let me comment on your own views as I understand them. Implicit in your comment above is the notion that our presence here cannot be explained adequately just by the rules of physics and biology: it requires intelligence and purpose, i.e. God. If I’ve misrepresented your view please ignore the rest of this post. Now, for the sake of argument, let’s accept your position. Why do you think the intelligent cause of the universe and us is anything like, say, the Christian God, rather than one of Arthur C. Clark’s black obelisks? What can you see in the world and its history which suggests that our creator is benign and cares about us? How do you think we can learn what His purpose was in making us? If He had chosen to reveal Himself and His plan do you think He could have done it more intelligently than through the Bible, the Koran or the Book of Mormon? I concede that the Christian God (or someone like Him) may exist, but I can’t concede that any application of our limited senses and intelligence could lead us to that conclusion. What am I missing here? Now back to Father Williams. Well, being a good RC he’ll have no difficulty answering these questions: he’s got the ear of God (or at least God’s right-hand man), knows how we should pray, have (or not have) sex and how and with whom, what to eat on Friday’s, how many circles of hell there are, and why condoms are sinful. Can you explain how he’s so better informed on these topics than I am? And what possible evidence he can adduce in support of his views on any of them? As for his arguments, I’ll comment only on this one <<For example, Father Williams shows how they confidently assert that atheism will result in a higher ethical standard and a greater intellectual maturity– and yet, statistics from history and even from current polls show quite the opposite. This inconsistency needs to be addressed, and Father Williams does so with direct and incisive clarity>>. This (possibly unintentionally) misstates the case: atheism in itself won’t result in a higher or lower anything any more than not believing in Father Christmas will. We need people of good will and with empathy for their fellowman (whatever their beliefs or labels or lack of them) to make this a happier world. Good will and empathy are not predicated on religion IMHO (H for honest, LG – no humility here), nor I believe on the presence of something other than or outside the brain called a soul. Revealed religion far from being the custodian, champion and iterpreter of morality is in its nature divisive (sheep/goats, believer/infidel, faithful/unfaithful). The sectarianism resulting from the ambiguities and contradictions found in the holy books have caused persecution and conflict where none need have existed. The conclusion I’ve come to is that religion is man made, that at best resonates with real and natural instincts we have, but at its worst (most especially amongst the fundamentalists) is a hindrance to human progress moral and otherwise. And welcome to the thread, Latypov
I’ve read the summary of Father Williams’ book (and ordered it from Amazon), Latypov. Back to that in a minute. Let me comment on your own views as I understand them. Implicit in your comment above is the notion that our presence here cannot be explained adequately just by the rules of physics and biology: it requires intelligence and purpose, i.e. God. If I’ve misrepresented your view please ignore the rest of this post. Now, for the sake of argument, let’s accept your position. Why do you think the intelligent cause of the universe and us is anything like, say, the Christian God, rather than one of Arthur C. Clark’s black obelisks? What can you see in the world and its history which suggests that our creator is benign and cares about us? How do you think we can learn what His purpose was in making us? If He had chosen to reveal Himself and His plan do you think He could have done it more intelligently than through the Bible, the Koran or the Book of Mormon? I concede that the Christian God (or someone like Him) may exist, but I can’t concede that any application of our limited senses and intelligence could lead us to that conclusion. What am I missing here? Now back to Father Williams. Well, being a good RC he’ll have no difficulty answering these questions: he’s got the ear of God (or at least God’s right-hand man), knows how we should pray, have (or not have) sex and how and with whom, what to eat on Friday’s, how many circles of hell there are, and why condoms are sinful. Can you explain how he’s so better informed on these topics than I am? And what possible evidence he can adduce in support of his views on any of them? As for his arguments, I’ll comment only on this one <<For example, Father Williams shows how they confidently assert that atheism will result in a higher ethical standard and a greater intellectual maturity– and yet, statistics from history and even from current polls show quite the opposite. This inconsistency needs to be addressed, and Father Williams does so with direct and incisive clarity>>. This (possibly unintentionally) misstates the case: atheism in itself won’t result in a higher or lower anything any more than not believing in Father Christmas will. We need people of good will and with empathy for their fellowman (whatever their beliefs or labels or lack of them) to make this a happier world. Good will and empathy are not predicated on religion IMHO (H for honest, LG – no humility here), nor I believe on the presence of something other than or outside the brain called a soul. Revealed religion far from being the custodian, champion and iterpreter of morality is in its nature divisive (sheep/goats, believer/infidel, faithful/unfaithful). The sectarianism resulting from the ambiguities and contradictions found in the holy books have caused persecution and conflict where none need have existed. The conclusion I’ve come to is that religion is man made, that at best resonates with real and natural instincts we have, but at its worst (most especially amongst the fundamentalists) is a hindrance to human progress moral and otherwise. And welcome to the thread, Latypov
vetuste_ennemi. I can only say that I agree with you. Nothing that you say makes me disagree. We are all here in similar circumstances and trying to understand why we are here and what to believe in. If we take religion completely out of this, my opinion is that we are not here for anything from less than a day to around one hundred years and that is it. I have a belief that there is another dimension and that we move on after the end of our earthly life. Without that belief I would find life on earth to be largely meaningless and totally unfair to those that are born with handicaps, suffer terrible fates etc. I think that all those who contribute on these threads are actually a lot closer in their hopes and beliefs than some of "discussions" seem to indicate.
Sorry to be slow coming back Latypov
Just to pick up on a couple of things - you can call a conciousness, a personality a soul if you like - that's a question of symantecs - I was referring to an immortal soul - one that survives death.
That is certainly not a fact!
I'm still interested in people's facination with creation as a defining feature of God.
If there was a creator who actually had no interest in humanity ,that there was no immortal soul - what then?
I'm pretty sure religion would collapse
Definitions of God have filled gaps in our knowledge over the years from lightning to evolution - God as a precarious position - after all who created God? He's unnecessary to our understanding now.
Just to pick up on a couple of things - you can call a conciousness, a personality a soul if you like - that's a question of symantecs - I was referring to an immortal soul - one that survives death.
That is certainly not a fact!
I'm still interested in people's facination with creation as a defining feature of God.
If there was a creator who actually had no interest in humanity ,that there was no immortal soul - what then?
I'm pretty sure religion would collapse
Definitions of God have filled gaps in our knowledge over the years from lightning to evolution - God as a precarious position - after all who created God? He's unnecessary to our understanding now.
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