Judge Rules Teen Jw Must Have A Blood Transfusion

[LazyGun]

What do you think to this case?

I am all for authorizing blood transfusions when the prognosis is such that the patient will almost certainly die if they do not receive a transfusion, and where there is a clear expectation that having received a blood transfusion the chances of survival are markedly released, and were this case about a young child, under 15-16 say I would probably not have any issues with the decision.

But a 17 year old only months away from being 18? Not sure we should be forcing patients to receive blood -having to sedate them to give them a transfusion - is warranted.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/teen-witness-must-have-a-transfusion-rules-judge-20130417-2i0lc.html

[jim360]

I'd argue it's rather more arrogant to insist on "my body my choice" than to pay attention to sound advice based on experimental evidence. But whatever. I think there's enough been said by both sides now.

In mathematics at least I'd hope there's no room for disagreement. It's all a question of where the line is drawn. I draw it farther out, I think, than most.

[Sharingan]

Mathematics has nothing whatsoever with anyone's right to choose their medical treatment, you're veering off course a lot now.

[whiskeryron]

woofgang 14/07 Friday. Excellent, I totally agree with all that you are saying.

WR.

[jim360]

Yes of course I am, I was just wanting to know where, if at all, you drew the line between opinion and choice mattering and it not.

[woofgang]

and now you know. Thank you WR
To paraphrase Donne, "Any person's loss of choice diminishes mine."

[woofgang]

sharingan I just flipped back and saw your comment. Thank you...I have my own brick wall, I kept it when i retired....I do find though that its more efficacious to bang the heads of dissenters against it than to further damage my own!

[Sharingan]

Right, for some people life is not the prize. It is their opinion that quality of life is such that in some circumstances their life becomes devalued to them. This is the case here. The young man is ill. He may die with or without the treatment. He has chosen not to have the treatment suggested because he does not wish to. That should be enough for anyone. It is not for you and a few others, and I will have to deal with that as there appears to be no way of dissuading you that someone's choice is such a chalice of value that it should never be undermined when it is solely about their own body.
I know some people who are so depressed every day that they would prefer to die. Why should it not be their right to do so when their every waking hour is a misery for example? I really cannot understand how an intelligent and caring human being can miss such a huge chunk of what the human condition actually is and why choice is the real prize not life necessarily.

[Sharingan]

I may well try that next Woofgang :) xx

[jim360]

Not really as banging my head against the wall would be denying my choice, wouldn't it?

[emmie]

but that is someone else's opinion, and if it just to happens to be against yours, why would that make them wrong, or you right, that is all this is about opinion. LG said what do you think of this case, that's it, you either agree or not. Nor is it going to change the case, if the boy doesn't want to have a transfusion then unless they are proposing strapping him to a trolley as been suggested, then not sure how they can proceed. I don't agree with his or his parents stance, but if that is his choice then they should leave him be.

[Sharingan]

Ooooh you just shot yourself in the foot there Jim, you are the one who says personal choice isn't as important as facts. Fact is if I scare you enough by battering your head against a brick wall if you have any sense you'll change your mind :) xx

[emmie]

the one thing i do know about people who say they want to die because they are so depressed is that very often it isn't what they want, but actual help, given by family, friends, and more importantly a good doctor who understands them, who can help and treat the person accordingly, i do know, been there and so have any number of friends. Most people who commit suicide do so on the spur of the moment, and there is no going back.. This young man is not in that category, he is refusing treatment over a belief, let him be if that is what he wants.

[jim360]

I think we've both got a bit silly sharingan.

Long story short, em -- but sometimes for me "it's just your opinion" is the last defence of someone who knows they are wrong but refuses to change their mind regardless. Arrogant of me to say so? Yes, definitely. But even so there are some things that you cannot, or should not, have an "opinion" about. The argument then is for me whether or not this is one of those cases.

Note that in the cases where "it's my opinion" is "fine" then choice does matter more than facts - perhaps because there are no facts. But I will always struggle to accept the idea that some people have that it's their right to be wrong.

[emmie]

this was to both of you, you both profess to be right, banging heads and all that, its daft. Surely it is a matter of opinion as opposed to who is right and who is wrong.

[Sharingan]

In my opinion I am not wrong Jim, you are. In your opinion you are right and I am wrong. It's a case of ' this is my truth, tell me yours' except you won't accept anyone else's right to their opinion about their body, which is a bit sad really.

[Sharingan]

It is Em, but Jim will not accept that, he has to be 'right' whatever that is in such a subjective area.

[woofgang]

em 10, the proposal is forcible sedation, if he does not comply, the young man will be restrained mechanically or more likely by many hospital staff and given a sedative injection. Likely the sedation will then be maintained for the duration of the transfusion. As I understand it more than one transfusion will be needed so the process will need to be repeated more than once. I am wondering whether the medical staff who have pursued this to court have ever been involved in the forcible administration of sedation, I have once as a student on placement at a mental health hospital. It isn't pleasant.

[chaptazbru]

Good point em about different opinions, BUT you didn't like it when folk on here didn't agree with you about Thatcher, now did you ? x

[emmie]

this has turned into a matter of two people who think they are both right. Whilst the young man in question will have the treatment of not. It isn't a foregone conclusion, and what happens in Australia doesn't happen here, different set of laws