Quizzes & Puzzles18 mins ago
Does Anyone Hear Prayers?
89 Answers
A Englishman says: I used to say that I didn’t believe in God because I thought that religion was invented to control people and to make money. Also, if there were a God, I reasoned, then there would not be so much injustice. Yet, sometimes I would sit quietly and talk to ‘something.’ I would also ask myself, ‘How did I get here?
Each person with such feelings has his own reasons for doubting whether prayers are answered. In many cases, the doubts may be fueled by unanswered questions, such as the following:
▪ Is there a Creator?
▪ Why is religion so often an influence for bad?
▪ Why does God allow suffering?
If you could know the answers to those questions, would you feel more confident about praying.
Becaus a survey of 10,000 people on four continents showed that of the respondents who describe themselves as atheists, almost 30 percent pray.
From WT on line library
Each person with such feelings has his own reasons for doubting whether prayers are answered. In many cases, the doubts may be fueled by unanswered questions, such as the following:
▪ Is there a Creator?
▪ Why is religion so often an influence for bad?
▪ Why does God allow suffering?
If you could know the answers to those questions, would you feel more confident about praying.
Becaus a survey of 10,000 people on four continents showed that of the respondents who describe themselves as atheists, almost 30 percent pray.
From WT on line library
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And yet another original quote from our JW rep:
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I may just start praying for some original thought from this man (assuming that he is male).
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I may just start praying for some original thought from this man (assuming that he is male).
Now here’s a thing. Not knowing Goodlife’s biblical reference off the top of my head, I Googled it, and lo and behold we have several different interpretations. There’s a bit of a difference between a god ‘hearing’ a prayer and a god ‘answering’ a prayer. Not quite sure where the Knox bible is going with it, but I thought I’d sling it in for good measure. Within such contradictions, I really don’t see how God has made his will clear regarding prayer – although the Orthodox Jewish bible does favour the ‘hearing’ rather than the ‘answering’, so don’t hold your breath.
Psalm 65:2
New International Version (NIV)
2 You who answer prayer,
to you all people will come.
Psalm 65:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.
Psalms 65:2
Knox Bible (KNOX)
2 sing praise to his name, pay homage to his glory!
Psalm 65:2
New International Version (NIV)
2 You who answer prayer,
to you all people will come.
Psalm 65:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.
Psalms 65:2
Knox Bible (KNOX)
2 sing praise to his name, pay homage to his glory!
Simple contradictions can be shown to have an honest solution.
People who claim that the Bible contradicts itself have not made a thorough investigation themselves, they merely accept this opinion that is thrust upon them by those who do not wish to believe the Bible or be governed by it.
The Bible cautions it at Proverbs 18:13.
People who claim that the Bible contradicts itself have not made a thorough investigation themselves, they merely accept this opinion that is thrust upon them by those who do not wish to believe the Bible or be governed by it.
The Bible cautions it at Proverbs 18:13.
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Goodlife, //People who claim that the Bible contradicts itself have not made a thorough investigation themselves, they merely accept this opinion that is thrust upon them by those who do not wish to believe the Bible or be governed by it. //
So it follows that you have accepted the opinion of whoever translated your choice of bible and thrust that upon you.
So it follows that you have accepted the opinion of whoever translated your choice of bible and thrust that upon you.
Just a few general points.
1. At least on this 1 occasion to date, goodlife has kind of made a stab at referencing his source when he types at the bottom of the OP "From the WT on line library", which is an improvement of sorts but could still be improved - just offer a precis, then a link to that specific page, goodlife - NOT a generic link to the WT website, but a link to that specific story..
Bizarrely though, when you look at the archived post on WT, it transpires the Englishman was called Allan - a really important point that goodlife left out!!! Why the censorship!!??? Is this some sort of JW conspiracy? :) (only joking, goodlife)
More importantly though - the survey is mentioned, but no reference is given to it, so we cannot check the data for ourselves. We have to take the findings on faith- now, I know the faithheads are happy to do that, but us sceptics are less convinced - so before I go actually believing that 30% of athiests pray, out of a sample of 10,000 people, I want to see the original source. As it is, I would have serious doubts about the quality of the survey.
pdust makes this weirdly illogical circular argument for prayer which went something like yes i believe my prayers are heard because otherwise it would be a waste of time praying - well, quite! Thats what us atheists keep telling all you faithheads. There is no one home to hear your prayer, nor act upon it.:)
Naomi is right with the epicurean paradox. There must have been,over the thousands of years of established religion and reassurances from priests that god will hear and will act upon your prayer, many thousands of amputees who earnestly prayed for gods indulgence in presenting them with the miracle of a new limb to replace the missing original - but never has god seen fit to answer their requests.
So Why not? Because it would be one of the best marketing tools you could possibly imagine - church membership and numbers of believers would skyrocket overnight!
The answer has to be incapable, indifferent, sadistic or absent. Since there is no evidence of any worth throughout recorded history of gods works, I would say the latter proposition is most likely true...
1. At least on this 1 occasion to date, goodlife has kind of made a stab at referencing his source when he types at the bottom of the OP "From the WT on line library", which is an improvement of sorts but could still be improved - just offer a precis, then a link to that specific page, goodlife - NOT a generic link to the WT website, but a link to that specific story..
Bizarrely though, when you look at the archived post on WT, it transpires the Englishman was called Allan - a really important point that goodlife left out!!! Why the censorship!!??? Is this some sort of JW conspiracy? :) (only joking, goodlife)
More importantly though - the survey is mentioned, but no reference is given to it, so we cannot check the data for ourselves. We have to take the findings on faith- now, I know the faithheads are happy to do that, but us sceptics are less convinced - so before I go actually believing that 30% of athiests pray, out of a sample of 10,000 people, I want to see the original source. As it is, I would have serious doubts about the quality of the survey.
pdust makes this weirdly illogical circular argument for prayer which went something like yes i believe my prayers are heard because otherwise it would be a waste of time praying - well, quite! Thats what us atheists keep telling all you faithheads. There is no one home to hear your prayer, nor act upon it.:)
Naomi is right with the epicurean paradox. There must have been,over the thousands of years of established religion and reassurances from priests that god will hear and will act upon your prayer, many thousands of amputees who earnestly prayed for gods indulgence in presenting them with the miracle of a new limb to replace the missing original - but never has god seen fit to answer their requests.
So Why not? Because it would be one of the best marketing tools you could possibly imagine - church membership and numbers of believers would skyrocket overnight!
The answer has to be incapable, indifferent, sadistic or absent. Since there is no evidence of any worth throughout recorded history of gods works, I would say the latter proposition is most likely true...
LG; Full marks for your tenacity in the research, but I think you are missing an important point about prayer [see my post 09:43 and Jim's 10:43].
A few years back a friend of mine was flying a single engine bi-plane over the Arctic on his way to Canada when the engine started to mis-fire. 3,000 ft below an enormous blizzard raged, he said he heard himself saying, "I've never paid much attention to whether you exist or not, but if you do, now would be a good time to manifest yourself!" :-)
Actually, the engine spluttered and somehow cleared itself and he got to Nova Scotia, he didn't become a huge convert, but it gave him comfort at the time, and left him with a pleasing room for doubt.
A few years back a friend of mine was flying a single engine bi-plane over the Arctic on his way to Canada when the engine started to mis-fire. 3,000 ft below an enormous blizzard raged, he said he heard himself saying, "I've never paid much attention to whether you exist or not, but if you do, now would be a good time to manifest yourself!" :-)
Actually, the engine spluttered and somehow cleared itself and he got to Nova Scotia, he didn't become a huge convert, but it gave him comfort at the time, and left him with a pleasing room for doubt.
//Does Anyone Hear Prayers? //
Of course ! Even if it's only the neighbours and the clerics.
For the past 6+ years a billion Catholics plus other theists have been praying for Madeline McCann . Even if that was only once a week that's about 400 billion prayers. So I assume someone hears them . It's a total waste of time otherwise.
Do you think , goodlife . if I added an atheist prayer it would help ?
I don't know how that could be done though, as not believing in any god I wouldn't have a god to pray to.
Of course ! Even if it's only the neighbours and the clerics.
For the past 6+ years a billion Catholics plus other theists have been praying for Madeline McCann . Even if that was only once a week that's about 400 billion prayers. So I assume someone hears them . It's a total waste of time otherwise.
Do you think , goodlife . if I added an atheist prayer it would help ?
I don't know how that could be done though, as not believing in any god I wouldn't have a god to pray to.
@ Khandro Hadn't missed it, or Jims contribution, so much as not agreed with either and so dismissed them :)
We do not know from the OP, or from the survey, exactly what was meant by those who carried out the survey, and how that meaning was conveyed to the respondents when the term "prayer" was used.
And I think there is a significant difference between say, " Oh god please let me win the lottery this week" - which I see as more as a kind of hopeful expression that probability be kind, couched in a kind of cultural context derived from all the religious gobbledegook that humans have had to assimilate over the centuries - and a genuine ,hands together, eyes closed call to action from a desperate practitioner to an almighty god to save a loved ones life, or not to let the parents find out about the bad school report, or the desire to have a replacement limb magically grafted on to where the much loved and much missed original used to be, or for that oncoming and frankly pants-wettingly terrifying onrushing tidal wave to magically recede, please, like, NOW!.
And then if you really want to determine the credibility of the survey, you have the problem of deciding whether what WT calls "10,000 atheists" is actually credible, and genuine, or not - but, that apart, if prayer is considered the former - a kind of reflex, shout out wish for probability to be kind then perhaps the quoted figure is indeed not all that surprising - all though if you ever hear me call out to god feel free to shoot me for being a hypocrite, because I never have, and I never will - But if you consider prayer to be the latter - a kind of genuine genuflective intercessory prayer - then I am very surprised indeed. Surprised to the point of disbelief in the survey actually even existing :)
And, regardless of the nature of the prayer - reflex or genuflective- epicurus' paradox still holds....
We do not know from the OP, or from the survey, exactly what was meant by those who carried out the survey, and how that meaning was conveyed to the respondents when the term "prayer" was used.
And I think there is a significant difference between say, " Oh god please let me win the lottery this week" - which I see as more as a kind of hopeful expression that probability be kind, couched in a kind of cultural context derived from all the religious gobbledegook that humans have had to assimilate over the centuries - and a genuine ,hands together, eyes closed call to action from a desperate practitioner to an almighty god to save a loved ones life, or not to let the parents find out about the bad school report, or the desire to have a replacement limb magically grafted on to where the much loved and much missed original used to be, or for that oncoming and frankly pants-wettingly terrifying onrushing tidal wave to magically recede, please, like, NOW!.
And then if you really want to determine the credibility of the survey, you have the problem of deciding whether what WT calls "10,000 atheists" is actually credible, and genuine, or not - but, that apart, if prayer is considered the former - a kind of reflex, shout out wish for probability to be kind then perhaps the quoted figure is indeed not all that surprising - all though if you ever hear me call out to god feel free to shoot me for being a hypocrite, because I never have, and I never will - But if you consider prayer to be the latter - a kind of genuine genuflective intercessory prayer - then I am very surprised indeed. Surprised to the point of disbelief in the survey actually even existing :)
And, regardless of the nature of the prayer - reflex or genuflective- epicurus' paradox still holds....
@Khandro - It matters not whether he pre-dated or post-dated the christian notion of god. The logic he applies remains just as valid.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
His trilemma was as valid then as it still is today. I thought you were someone who valued ancient wisdom? :)
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
His trilemma was as valid then as it still is today. I thought you were someone who valued ancient wisdom? :)
