Miracle Miracle

[jomifl]

A convenient miracle has been discovered which will allow pope paul to become a saint. Silly beyond words.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2344580/Vatican-pave-way-declaring-Pope-John-Paul-II-saint-attributing-mystery-miracle-him.html
Apologies for the link to the daily mail, the same story is in most newspapers so it must be true.

[Peter Pedant]

jomifl.... so the story must be true

so there's been a mirable

so exactly what are you complaining about ?


what is wrong with St JP II along with St Sharon, St Wayne and St Paris ?

[Octavius]

But with the children starving in Africa you can activley do something to contribute and make it your everyday. You choose not to. Merely have an opinon. Ok. Anology understood.

[chrisgel]

Show me a fully documented case of an amputated limb growing back as the result of a prayer and I might begin to believe in miracles.
Oh I forgot there has to be an element of doubt doesn't there?
That's faith for you.

[sandyRoe]

I believe that there is a room at Lourdes full of abandoned crutches left there by people who no longer need them.

[Octavius]

Chrisgel, are you volunterring yourself for an experiment?

[jomifl]

Sandy, a few weekends scouring car boot sales and I could fill a room with crutches. I could even get a few artificial legs but it doesn't mean the owners leg grew back. Usually it means the owner died. Perhaps your room full of crutches indicates that dead people don't need to walk. Some miracle, just a miracle of gullibility.

[chrisgel]

Octavius - No. I don't have "faith"

[andy-hughes]

sandyRoe - the walls and ceiling of the grotto at Lourdes is indeed festoooned with crutches, i have seen it.

But there is a proven medical condition - the psychosomatic paralysis, where the patient believes that they cannot walk, and so their limbs fail to function - and will pass any medical test.

The cliche 'mind over matter' is a cliche becuase, like all cliches, it is true. So if the person has a strong faith, and believes they have been 'cured' then the mental supression of the use of their limb(s) is lifted, and an apparent mircale has occured.

This is no more valid than believing that a sacrifice to the sun will give good crops next year - it is simply a belief system that sustains some people - and, as in my case, not others.

[bazwillrun]

Ahhhh Lourdes...based on nothing but a figment of the imagination of a little girl...

yet still desperate people flock there in their millions...full of hope all based on nothing but lies..and the church is compicit in giving these people false hope

liars, thieves and charlatans...thats just the church

[andy-hughes]

baz - as the story says -

A lady returned from Lourdes having taken her wheelchair-bound husband for a 'cure'.

"It was wonderful - they hoisted him up in the chair, and dipped the chair, and my husband into the waters, and then hoisted them our, and back onto dry land."

So can your husband walk now, she was asked.

"Oh no," she replied. "He still can't walk, but the wheelchair has got a fantastic new set of tyres on it!"

[bazwillrun]

Haha !

Two words the church and just about every if not all religions abhor

Truth and Evidence

[Octavius]

"yet still desperate people flock there in their millions...full of hope all based on nothing but lies"

For a moment I thought you were talking about the queue at the lottery ticket machine. Hope is not a bad thing baz. Dum spiro spero.

[andy-hughes]

Ocatvius - hope is a wonderful thing - but hope of a financial reward based on a proven set of odds is an informed choice.

That in no way equates to an unproven concept that an unproven God will supply a miracle at random to certain individuals based on an unknown criteria.

If God existed and wish to cure the sick, it could be done in an instant, without the framework of a legend and a costly and in some cases painful excursion to a foreign country.

[bazwillrun]

"Hope is not a bad thing baz"

i suppose if youre running a corrupt organisation "a church" and it makes you £gazillions, then yes

I prefer words like "being realistic" "probability" etc

[bazwillrun]

"If God existed and wish to cure the sick,"

if hes got so much power and hes so smart, then how comes he came up with such fatally flawed life forms that fall ill.
why build in obsolesence, why not eternal life no illnesses disease etc etc etc ?

Come on hes had 4.6 billion years on earth to perfect us , yet is nowhere near job done, not forgetting the other nearly 10billion years all over the universe to practice and perfect his work

[Octavius]

"hope of a financial reward based on a proven set of odds is an informed choice."

Now, you are beginning to understand how the Vatican works!

[andy-hughes]

Octavius - my wife, parents-in-law, brother and sister-in-law, three children and four grandchildren (fifth to be baptised soon) are all Catholic - believe me, I know how the Vatican works!!! (LOL!)

[modeller]

There are over 10,000 RC saints including 76 ex Popes .
There are 10 more in the pipeline waiting for miracles to be found for them.
They have to wait until they get to the top of the list.