Water Divining

[naomi24]

I’ve just been listening to ‘The Bottom Line’ on Radio 4 where the guests were the vice president of CH2M Hill, the CEO of Veolia Water, and the CEO of Anglian Water, who all said that water diviners are used within their respective industries. One said if he hadn’t seen it with his own eyes, he would never have believed it works. Listen to the last few minutes of the programme from about 27.14.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b036w3b6

Your thoughts?

[Svejk]

If we're talking about the same thing, it certainly does work.
I've done it loads of times, as previously stated, and I aint in the habit of lying.

[chrisgel]

If you look at the site that Mamya posted you will notice that it brags about how many clients they have worked for and found water for.
What you won't find is how many they didn't find water for. It's basically an advert for their services and as such carries no weight whatsoever.

Unless the method is repeatable and testable using rigorous scientific standards then they are nothing more than hearsay and bunkum.
As stated there is $1 million waiting for anyone that can prove this works. They don't even have to prove how it works just that it works.

[The Builder]

I can't do it myself, but a digger-driver friend can, with one bent piece of fencing wire.
I've used this many times. He leaps out of the JCB and finds mains/drains/soakaways/springs quite easily.
Always works for me :o)

[THECORBYLOON]

I have seen programmes featuring divining and it does appear to work. It's been said that the distance it takes for the rods to un-cross is an indication of how deep the water is and the diviners can "ask" the rods to indicate how fast the water is flowing to see if it's worth drilling. The fact that companies employ them does support the diviners since if it were only chance, why do they not drill at random?

[jim360]

I'm not accusing you, or anyone, of lying. I am saying that your belief that dowsing works (to what extent do you mean that it works? 100% success? 75%, 50%? how close are you?) is just a belief, unsubstantiated by scientific study.

Lying it certainly is not. I just think that you and all others claiming that it works are victims of confirmation bias. You wouldn't be the first, you won't be the last either.

[Svejk]

Well Jim, call around Chris's house & get a £100 of him to go with your £100 and come down here. I'll do it 20 times in a row for you. You do the digging, it'll do you good. ;)

[Sharingan]

My grandfather, who was not prone to fits of fancy could dowse using two hazel sticks. A more sensible, city dwelling disbeliever in anything esoteric you would never wish to meet.

[naomi24]

Chris, I’m aware of all that – and of Randi’s offer – but I still don’t understand why major companies would use it unless they’d had positive results from it. Now here’s a thing – and Jim will probably jump on my head for saying it – but my head is accustomed to being jumped on around here, so here goes. What if it only works in certain conditions, or in certain types of soil where particular minerals are present, for example? Randi’s test uses water laying in plastic pipes – but what if plastic acts as a barrier whereas certain kinds of metal don’t? I’m guessing, of course, but what if?

[humbersloop]

my dad could do exactly what you describe The Builder

[Graham-W]

How many more times must we test this to prove only chance is at work. I'm sure the Fairies and Ghosts have the ability, but not us humans.
A 1948 study tested 58 dowsers' ability to detect water. None of them was more reliable than chance.
A 1979 review examined many controlled studies of dowsing for water, and found that none of them showed better than chance results.
A 2006 study of grave dowsing in Iowa reviewed 14 published studies and determined that none of them correctly predicted the location of human burials, and simple scientific experiments demonstrated the fundamental principles commonly used to explain grave dowsing were incorrect.
More recently a study was undertaken in Kassel, Germany, under the direction of the Gesellschaft zur Wissenschaftlichen Untersuchung von Parawissenschaften (GWUP) [Society for the Scientific Investigation of the Parasciences]. The three-day test of some 30 dowsers involved plastic pipes through which water flow could be controlled and directed. The pipes were buried 50 centimeters under a level field, the position of each marked on the surface with a colored strip. The dowsers had to tell whether water was running through each pipe. All the dowsers signed a statement agreeing this was a fair test of their abilities and that they expected a 100 percent success rate. However, the results were no better than chance.

[humbersloop]

shouldn't it be posted in Science rather than R&S then?

I don't recall my dad making any claims about being a dowser, just sometimes with a bit of wire he found water on a building site

nada

[naomi24]

Graham, yes, I read that just now on the internet - Wiki perhaps? Nevertheless, my curiosity remains.

[chrisgel]

Naomi, what if? That sounds almost religious :-)
The fact is it may well be true and it may well work but until it has been confirmed by proper scientists and the reasons why it works are discovered then it has no more credence than leprechauns.
As for major companies using them, I'm prepared to bet (a small amount) that they use far more geologists and engineers than they do water diviners.
I think it's almost on a par with the police using psychics to find missing bodies.

[naomi24]

I posted it here because I know the residents are interested. It's been discussed here several times before.

[paddywak]

I don't know how or why but it does work,like Svejk I was regularly deployed to the pit top to check for buried cables etc when they were doing trenching work etc. British Coal were very safety conscious and it became a bit of a game,I'd walk the site with one of the surveyors with my little bits of bent wire and another team would then do it using the latest detectors and the results were then compared. In all the times I did it I can never remember my findings varying by any significant amount from those using instruments.

[naomi24]

Chris,///what if? That sounds almost religious//

Not at all. Where would science be without scientists who say 'what if?' ;o)

[jim360]

Svejk, I'll keep my £100, but get in touch with James Randi and do the same thing and you can get £1 million. Good luck! Like everyone else, I'd expect you to fail, but if you succeed in controlled conditions then you'd deserve every penny for such a massive breakthrough.

Naomi, I half-wonder if the plastic might make some difference, too. But on the other hand the dowsers who were tested didn't seem to think it would matter. Also, some dowsers seem to think that they can divine with pretty much anything, be it metal or wood or glass, so I doubt that the material makes any difference whatever.

There's no mechanism for this to work, and there's no evidence that it does beyond personal accounts. Which are fine to set up a study -- but then when the study draws a blank and people ignore that, well, what can you do?

Never mind. Ultimately this is about personal experience versus scientific study, and pretty much everyone gives more weight to their own experiences. Not surprising, really, I'm sure there are times I do it myself -- but personal experience is not something you can base a credible opinion on, because it's so vulnerable to human flaws.

[mibn2cweus]

//My question (in my head) was WHY do they use them?//

Naomi, I can't believe you've never sat in at a meeting of principal stockholders. Such an experience can be . . . a revelation. :o/

[pixie373]

I know two people who are 100% sure they can divine. Both very intelligent. One has tried to prove it twice to me and one once. They both failed each time, so i remain sceptical. Companies can be taken in, just like anyone else and especially so, if they think they can save some money.

[DaisyNonna]

Have tried doing it and it worked.