ChatterBank1 min ago
If God Made Man ….. Why?
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Allegedly the good end up sharing eternity with him – the bad, depending upon what you believe, are either doomed to hell, or once dead are dead forever – but what’s the ultimate purpose of it all? The perception that God is omniscient, and therefore must have known what would happen before he created anything, aside - some will say that God gave man free will and man has a choice between good and evil – but if God wants everyone to be good, why give man free will at all? He had it made before he did that – everyone was good – so exactly as he supposedly wanted them to be. Why would a 'wise' God devise such a senseless and counter-productive plan? It doesn’t seem terribly wise to me.
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Before I say anything I must say that no plan would ever seem sensible to you as you have this psychological problem that only whatever you believe makes sense and nothing else.
Having said that, in Islam we believe that God created human and Jin (a spirit being) for only one reason and that was to worship him. Now worship is a very restricted word when it comes to English as a language. But in Islam it means he should do everything in his day to day life as God wanted him to do and not as man himself wanted. And very simple reason of doing that was that God had given man to do otherwise if he wished to do so. Out of all of the creations of God only these two creations has free will or ability to do or not to as God wanted him to do. Yes God being omniscient knew who would do that and who would not but that does not mean he is making us do that. Knowing what someone would do on the basis of the knowledge about that person does not mean the person who knew made the other person do that. No he just predicted In other words. According to one hadith (and few verses in Quran) had God willed he would have decided to put few in paradise and few in the hell as he knew who would act upon and who would not but then very simply those people would have said that had they been given a chance they might have done otherwise. To come clear from that, God has given us this life and a free will to do. The best example I can think of is that imagine an examiner who has few students, he gives them few tests and would like if all of them could pass the test. Now imagine if he could go forward in time and see which of the students (candidate) would act upon his teachings and pass the exam and which one would fail. What would happen if on the basis of that he decided not to go ahead with the exams but to fail the one he knew would fail and pass the one according to his knowledge of the future would pass? Now ver simply the one he passed would be happy and no problem with that, but the one who he failed would say that had he been given the exams he might have passed. And he got a point and that is the reason examiner decided to give them the test and in real life freewill.
Having said that, in Islam we believe that God created human and Jin (a spirit being) for only one reason and that was to worship him. Now worship is a very restricted word when it comes to English as a language. But in Islam it means he should do everything in his day to day life as God wanted him to do and not as man himself wanted. And very simple reason of doing that was that God had given man to do otherwise if he wished to do so. Out of all of the creations of God only these two creations has free will or ability to do or not to as God wanted him to do. Yes God being omniscient knew who would do that and who would not but that does not mean he is making us do that. Knowing what someone would do on the basis of the knowledge about that person does not mean the person who knew made the other person do that. No he just predicted In other words. According to one hadith (and few verses in Quran) had God willed he would have decided to put few in paradise and few in the hell as he knew who would act upon and who would not but then very simply those people would have said that had they been given a chance they might have done otherwise. To come clear from that, God has given us this life and a free will to do. The best example I can think of is that imagine an examiner who has few students, he gives them few tests and would like if all of them could pass the test. Now imagine if he could go forward in time and see which of the students (candidate) would act upon his teachings and pass the exam and which one would fail. What would happen if on the basis of that he decided not to go ahead with the exams but to fail the one he knew would fail and pass the one according to his knowledge of the future would pass? Now ver simply the one he passed would be happy and no problem with that, but the one who he failed would say that had he been given the exams he might have passed. And he got a point and that is the reason examiner decided to give them the test and in real life freewill.
Keyplus, of good grief! You have an invisible friend, you believe in devils and magic, you believe the stars were made as missiles against demons - and I have a psychological problem? You are funny, really you are. :o)
I know what you believe. That isn’t the issue. So God created man because God wanted to be worshipped, but logically, had he not given man free will, (or created evil come to that), God would have achieved his aim with no problems at all. Bad people wouldn’t have existed, man would have lived in peace and harmony with his fellow man - and everyone would have thought God was marvellous. Job done! Not exactly sensible was he?
I know what you believe. That isn’t the issue. So God created man because God wanted to be worshipped, but logically, had he not given man free will, (or created evil come to that), God would have achieved his aim with no problems at all. Bad people wouldn’t have existed, man would have lived in peace and harmony with his fellow man - and everyone would have thought God was marvellous. Job done! Not exactly sensible was he?
Doesn't the bible infer there is no "free will". If we do good we are obeying god and if we do evil we are obeying satan. Therefore we are all puppets and our destiny is sealed even before we are born.
Keyplus - //you have this psychological problem that only whatever you believe makes sense and nothing else.//
To follow this argument to it's logical conclusion then - We should believe what doesn't make sense. That's a definition of your position not Naomi's.
Keyplus - //you have this psychological problem that only whatever you believe makes sense and nothing else.//
To follow this argument to it's logical conclusion then - We should believe what doesn't make sense. That's a definition of your position not Naomi's.
May I ask a question of the traditional believers like Cupid who are following this thread? It's this: if evil has arisen through man's free will how is it that your religion preaches a life of eternal bliss? If this is guaranteed ("the gospel of your salvation [by which] ye are sealed with the Holy Spirit which is the earnest of your inheritance" Eph), then how can it be that the saved will have free will, for if they have free will then they can choose to sin again? And if sometime after the sixth day when God that "everything was good" Lucifer and other angels chose evil, then why not Gabriel or Michael? Which brings us back to the OP with its mischievous suggestion that free will is a failed experiment. Or maybe God just thought there was a good story in it.
"why make it even possible for us to do bad? why not make the very concept impossible for us to even consider? why not make us all so full of love and kindness that the word 'bad' didnt exist".
An excellent question, Joko, which was developed fully (along with other compelling arguments" by Hume in either The Dialogue concerning Natural Religion or his History of Natural Religion.
An excellent question, Joko, which was developed fully (along with other compelling arguments" by Hume in either The Dialogue concerning Natural Religion or his History of Natural Religion.
The Bible says that God created man in his image. It is obvious then that he had free will. To do what? If mankind did not have free will then as previously stated in this thread, we would be robots. Can't imagine a more boring existence! To do just as programmed and not be able to think or feel or decide for oneself. It reminds me of a film I watched where Robin Williams played a robot and finally wanted to become a human so that he could enjoy life.
God created life because loves life and wanted to share it. He created not only man but animals and plants. However, it is only to man that he gave free will. The capacity to choose what to do. Animals act instinctively and plants just grow (instinctively).
If, at the beginning of mankinds existence, he chose to obey God rather than Satan, the world would be a very different place. The accounts in the Bible would not have happened and there would have been no need for Jesus Christ to die as he did.
Man,not God is to blame for what has happened over the centuries. Man it is that has enslaved, destroyed, killed and tortured. It is man that is ruining the planet.
As for evil. It was not made by God. True he made the creature who became evil. But again, this is due to the free will that was given him.
You, for your part Naomi & others, choose to be atheists. I, for my part, chose to be a believer. We have exercised our free will. We have made our choices on the influences upon our lives, either from our parents, friends or education.
But just as there is punishment for doing wrong, so there is a reward for doing right.
Some think the punishment is everlasting torment and the reward a heavenly life.
But neither is correct. Our consciences are the judge. When we know we do wrong we suffer a bad conscience but when we know we have done the right thing then we have peace of mind.
OK, you don't believe if heaven, but what do you make of Joko's question, Idiosyncrasy? Let's take mother love. With very rare exceptions all women have a natural and very powerful instinct to nurture their children. The instinct drives the mother: she doesn't "choose" to be caring, and, to that extent, you might say she has no free will. Were the instinct far less insistent would she be more human (because more free) or not? My answer to that is no (but we might predict of course that many more children would be badly nurtured). Hume cites other cases whereby the human condition would be greatly improved if some of our better instincts were as strong as some of our baser ones. Joko's question deserves an answer.
V-E
So to answer Joko -
We all have love and kindness within us. The majority of us don't do bad things and wouldn't even think of doing them. It is a case of the 'exception proving the rule'.
And yes, God is powerful, and he could at the blink of an eye, wipe us all out. But again, for the few, he is holding back. God is waiting to see what we do as individuals. The Bible tells us that he wants no one to be destroyed but to turn to him.
Just as with the flood, he had Noah preach to the people for decades, warning them of what he would do if they continued the course they had chosen. They ignored him. So for the sake of the 8 that were obedient, he had the Ark built and so the obedient ones were saved. Had any of the onlookers changed, they too could have been saved. But they chose their course. Only when it was too late did they realise the consequences.
God did not give himself a massive headache. He is now waiting, just as he did during the time of Noah, to see what people are going to choose.
With regard to a mother's instinct. Their is the animal mother and the human mother. The animal mother instinctively knows if one of her cubs/pups is unwell and not likely to survive. What does she do? She will push it aside and let it die.
A human mother's instinct is just the opposite. Even if she knows it is likely to die she will do everything in her power to nuture the baby. The unique and individual mother’s instinct is often a force to reckon with. When a woman becomes a mother she somehow taps into a psychic and connected power to understand the intricate details of another human.
We live in an age where we are inundated with easy access to knowledge and information but the explanation of a mother’s instinct still remains vague. The longer we have our children the more proficient mothers become at using their instinctive sense when it comes to their children.
As mothers gain experience raising children they become even more adept at figuring out what ails their child or what makes them happy than any other person; including the child.
You say she doesn't choose to be caring. But to a degree she does. I have known women who have not wanted children and even when a child arrives, they choose not to continue with it, they choose not to nurture it or love it, they prefer to hand it over to others to perform the motherly duties - either through adoption or just wilful neglect.
On the other hand, there are those who claim not to have a maternal instinct, yet become very protective once the child arrives.
Also the human has the choice to become a mother or not. Animals don't. Their instinct is to produce young. They don't have powerful emotions if they don't have young. The human female does.
So to answer Joko -
We all have love and kindness within us. The majority of us don't do bad things and wouldn't even think of doing them. It is a case of the 'exception proving the rule'.
And yes, God is powerful, and he could at the blink of an eye, wipe us all out. But again, for the few, he is holding back. God is waiting to see what we do as individuals. The Bible tells us that he wants no one to be destroyed but to turn to him.
Just as with the flood, he had Noah preach to the people for decades, warning them of what he would do if they continued the course they had chosen. They ignored him. So for the sake of the 8 that were obedient, he had the Ark built and so the obedient ones were saved. Had any of the onlookers changed, they too could have been saved. But they chose their course. Only when it was too late did they realise the consequences.
God did not give himself a massive headache. He is now waiting, just as he did during the time of Noah, to see what people are going to choose.
With regard to a mother's instinct. Their is the animal mother and the human mother. The animal mother instinctively knows if one of her cubs/pups is unwell and not likely to survive. What does she do? She will push it aside and let it die.
A human mother's instinct is just the opposite. Even if she knows it is likely to die she will do everything in her power to nuture the baby. The unique and individual mother’s instinct is often a force to reckon with. When a woman becomes a mother she somehow taps into a psychic and connected power to understand the intricate details of another human.
We live in an age where we are inundated with easy access to knowledge and information but the explanation of a mother’s instinct still remains vague. The longer we have our children the more proficient mothers become at using their instinctive sense when it comes to their children.
As mothers gain experience raising children they become even more adept at figuring out what ails their child or what makes them happy than any other person; including the child.
You say she doesn't choose to be caring. But to a degree she does. I have known women who have not wanted children and even when a child arrives, they choose not to continue with it, they choose not to nurture it or love it, they prefer to hand it over to others to perform the motherly duties - either through adoption or just wilful neglect.
On the other hand, there are those who claim not to have a maternal instinct, yet become very protective once the child arrives.
Also the human has the choice to become a mother or not. Animals don't. Their instinct is to produce young. They don't have powerful emotions if they don't have young. The human female does.
//God did not give himself a massive headache. He is now waiting, just as he did during the time of Noah, to see what people are going to choose. //
I really wish people would decide once and for all the attributes of their god.
Most theists argue combinations of omnibenevolence, omnisciense and omnipresence. If your god is omniscient he can't be waiting for people to choose because he already knows.
It's like juggling jelly trying to debate with you lot because you are forever changing the goalposts with regards to your gods powers.
I really wish people would decide once and for all the attributes of their god.
Most theists argue combinations of omnibenevolence, omnisciense and omnipresence. If your god is omniscient he can't be waiting for people to choose because he already knows.
It's like juggling jelly trying to debate with you lot because you are forever changing the goalposts with regards to your gods powers.
