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God But No Religion
40 Answers
If we all beieved in God and a final Day of Judgement but no Religion at all would the world be a better or worse place. ?
Answers
Pixie, I think it's perfectly possible to imagine that something created the universe but without religion it wouldn't be necessary to worship that imagined entity or to think any more about it. You could just consider it an explanation - like the Big Bang.
15:24 Mon 26th Aug 2013
It's a bit of a stretch, but I think you could conceivably have an idea of God without "religion" (i.e. without large hierarchical institutions devoted to him) - and no, I don't think the world would be a better place if everybody believed in this. In fact I find the idea slightly nightmarish.
I can't see any possible way you could have a widespread belief in a day of judgement without religion as such though. The whole point of a "day of judgement" (much like the idea of hell) has always, essentially, been to terrorise believers from a very young age to behave and think in ways that somebody else deems to be morally good. This isn't a scenario that's terribly tolerant of any kind of questioning about how good those commands actually are, so I fail to see how this could possibly sustain itself "organically", so to speak.
I can't see any possible way you could have a widespread belief in a day of judgement without religion as such though. The whole point of a "day of judgement" (much like the idea of hell) has always, essentially, been to terrorise believers from a very young age to behave and think in ways that somebody else deems to be morally good. This isn't a scenario that's terribly tolerant of any kind of questioning about how good those commands actually are, so I fail to see how this could possibly sustain itself "organically", so to speak.
Even if the basis of the religion was only that there would be a judgement day, it wouldn't be long before the usual suspects clarified how we would be judged and appointed themselves as experts.
'And lo, it came to pass that a multitude of religions appeared, there was much strife and the valleys were covered with blood and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth'
Just like always :o)
'And lo, it came to pass that a multitude of religions appeared, there was much strife and the valleys were covered with blood and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth'
Just like always :o)
I thought a similar sort of idea went through the heads of, say, Martin Luther, or John Wesley, or George Fox, or others, who went and broke away from mainstream religion as a reaction against what they saw as its problems, or hierarchy, or "apathy", or anyway some problem with the organisation. Of course these have now turned into their own religions (or denominations of a religion) -- eventually people seem to need an organisation to keep their ideas going.
Moreover, since there's no reason really even to believe in Judgment Day, nor a God in the first place, stripping away all the problems of an organised religion still leaves you with something that in all probability is wrong (or, at least, unnecessary). Even if the world did become a morally better place, that would be based on a falsehood and could not last for long.
Moreover, since there's no reason really even to believe in Judgment Day, nor a God in the first place, stripping away all the problems of an organised religion still leaves you with something that in all probability is wrong (or, at least, unnecessary). Even if the world did become a morally better place, that would be based on a falsehood and could not last for long.
I have read the philosophies of many religions , albeit not in depth, and I feel they all have major weaknesses and differences which as we know have always been a major cause of strife. The reason for that is that each one claims theirs is the one directed by their perception of God.
This is patently illogical . They may all be wrong . Is there an alternative ?
Bear in mind that all religions are man made . They are pure politics using God as their authority. Religion only evolved to give substance to the one thing that can not be proved God as the creator and final arbitrator.
Therefore could we strip away all the man made mumbo jumbo and just leave that tiny unprovable bit of the creator.
We would still have politics, laws , morals, philosophies but not the added destructive forces of religions.
This is patently illogical . They may all be wrong . Is there an alternative ?
Bear in mind that all religions are man made . They are pure politics using God as their authority. Religion only evolved to give substance to the one thing that can not be proved God as the creator and final arbitrator.
Therefore could we strip away all the man made mumbo jumbo and just leave that tiny unprovable bit of the creator.
We would still have politics, laws , morals, philosophies but not the added destructive forces of religions.
jim //Martin Luther, or John Wesley, or George Fox, or others, who went and broke away from mainstream religion ....................//
Yes but they were all devout believers to start with . They were trying to reform the church and all the corrupt practices. They wanted a stronger church and a return to the teachings of the bible as they saw it.
Martin Luther in particular deplored the sale of indulgences and wanted all bibles to be translated from the Latin into native languages. He succeeded but expressed great sorrow that he believed the church had been weakened as a result.
My whole point is we need organisations , as an alternative to anarchy but
organised religions have proved to have failed in their present form and have themselves created strife for millenia.
Yes but they were all devout believers to start with . They were trying to reform the church and all the corrupt practices. They wanted a stronger church and a return to the teachings of the bible as they saw it.
Martin Luther in particular deplored the sale of indulgences and wanted all bibles to be translated from the Latin into native languages. He succeeded but expressed great sorrow that he believed the church had been weakened as a result.
My whole point is we need organisations , as an alternative to anarchy but
organised religions have proved to have failed in their present form and have themselves created strife for millenia.
Yes pixie but many people NEED to believe in something outside themselves and their known world. That's why I suggested a God with some authority , the Judgement Day. That IMO would do littlle or no harm.
It's when Man writes the rules and claims that authority that causes all the problems.
OG //If we all believed in a God and a Judgement Day then that would be our religion surely. // That may be so but IMO I don't see that simple unprovable belief as a religion . To me a religion is a whole set of ideas to give some substance to a fictitious entity.
People who do believe in God do need something to substantiate that belief and a Judgement Day gives them just that, without that God would be a pointless entity having no influence on their / our lives.
It's when Man writes the rules and claims that authority that causes all the problems.
OG //If we all believed in a God and a Judgement Day then that would be our religion surely. // That may be so but IMO I don't see that simple unprovable belief as a religion . To me a religion is a whole set of ideas to give some substance to a fictitious entity.
People who do believe in God do need something to substantiate that belief and a Judgement Day gives them just that, without that God would be a pointless entity having no influence on their / our lives.
I do agree the term JD is a problem but without it or an equivalent the Theists are left with nothing but an empty vessel, a pointless entity who having created the universe has no further purpose. That is something Theists can not accept . The whole concept of a religion is to give that entity some substance . Theoretically you could abolish all the rules, regs, and trappings of a faith but for the 50% of the worlds population you can never take away faith in their God and his ultimate power. I think I am right in saying all faiths have some form of a final reckoning.
I spent some time in the USSR and they stripped the church of everything but the people still hung on to their basic belief.
To answer my own OP I believe the world would be a much better place without organised religions but being realistic the Theists need their basic faith as much as we need air to breathe. It may defy logic, it may be, as they say in the genes, it is certainly cultural and as we become more educated more and more people will become more atheistic but for the hard core theists , their need is greater than all the contrary evidence in the world.
I spent some time in the USSR and they stripped the church of everything but the people still hung on to their basic belief.
To answer my own OP I believe the world would be a much better place without organised religions but being realistic the Theists need their basic faith as much as we need air to breathe. It may defy logic, it may be, as they say in the genes, it is certainly cultural and as we become more educated more and more people will become more atheistic but for the hard core theists , their need is greater than all the contrary evidence in the world.
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