Evil

[jomifl]

Whilst enjoying 'The musketeers' ( OK I know it's mostly nonsense) last night the thought that 'evil' was perfected and defined by the catholic church crept into my mind. Hippocritically,having perfected it the church then set about exploiting it shamelessly and carried out countless acts of evil to further their own ends. Anybody who disagreed with them was pronounced evil and usually executed (after torture). This what the RC church is founded on, has it learned anything or changed much?

[jomifl]

It was the RC church that delayed the enlightenment by hundreds of years.

[Khandro]

jomifl; Not really; in the same year Galileo died, Isaac Newton was born.

[sandyRoe]

A transmigration of a great soul?

[naomi24]

It does exploit the concept of evil - that's how it controls the masses - but it doesn’t burn heretics or hang witches any more so that’s a step in the right direction. Only another two thousand years to go. ;o)

[Khandro]

sandy; "A transmigration of a great soul?" A good point: one can only wonder. Worthy of a thread to itself?

[jomifl]

/in the same year Galileo died, Isaac Newton was born./
and that proves what exactly?
The catholic church had been torturing and burning 'heretics'* for over 400 hundred of years prior to Newton, starting off with the Cathars who they slaughtered by the thousands.
*A heretic being anyone who disagreed with catholic dogma, it wasn't necessary to contradict the bible to be burned alive you just had to disagree with the infallible pope's reasoning. Ironically some of that reasoning was reluctantly contradicted by the next infallible pope in the light of overwhelming evidence in the real world. No public apology issued.

[Khandro]

jomifl: Are you suggesting that there were lots of other 'Galileos and Newtons', being hampered by the Catholic predilection for burning heretics?

[jomifl]

/jomifl: Are you suggesting that there were lots of other 'Galileos and Newtons', being hampered by the Catholic predilection for burning heretics/

Perhaps not of the stature of Galileo and Newton but we will never know since they were probably executed before they had any opportunity to develop or publicise their ideas.

[Khandro]

Surely anyone of such stature would have left a few notes at least, none seem to have been found.
The problem with revisionist history as expounded by Fry, is that it is very easy to make judgements of medieval actions and sensibilities from the comfort of a 21st century Weltanschauung
The fact is, that if the RC church had not been there pre-Enlightenment, it would have been replaced by something else, equally cloaked in superstition, and probably even worse.

[naomi24]

//The fact is, that if the RC church had not been there pre-Enlightenment, it would have been replaced by something else, equally cloaked in superstition, and probably even worse. //

An explanation is in order. How is that a fact?

[Khandro]

naomi; In these parts, magic, witchcraft, witch-hunting, witch burning was more common than anywhere else in Europe, in fact it was still carried out symbolically during last week's Fastnet Land owners could and did hang anyone found collecting even fallen twigs from their woods. The church didn't have the monopoly on disagreeable acts.

[naomi24]

But Khandro ... surely the witch-hunting, witch-burning, etc., was carried out by representatives of the church? I'm asking you what you claim would have replaced it.

[Khandro]

They certainly got in on the act, but it was mostly fuelled by fear of black magic, the devil, crop failures, flying on broomsticks etc. more like voodoo, not really anything to do with J.C.

[naomi24]

Perhaps you should ponder this a bit more.

[Khandro]

Most societies have made sacrifices of one another, old women, young virgins or animals etc. - you name it, someone did (and probably still does) it. Few if any have lived in perfect peace and harmony. Why would you think Europe sans RCs would have be any different?

[society]

"They certainly got in on the act, but it was mostly fuelled by fear of black magic, the devil, crop failures, flying on broomsticks etc. more like voodoo, not really anything to do with J.C. "

...and exorcism :)

[jomifl]

Khandro, your argument is as yet unconvincing. With the catholic church's record of terrorising free thinkers it is surprising that the enlightenment happened at all.

[jomifl]

Witchcraft was invented by the church along with the concept of evil at the same time as the earlier religions were being demonised. Why do you defend the catholic church Khandro, it has little in common with your philosophy surely?

[Khandro]

jomifl; Dare I say I enjoy playing Devil's Advocate :-)
But I'm sure removal of C. would only be replaced by something worse. Consider; in 1683 when Wren was busy building his cathedral, the musselmen were at the gates of Vienna, had they not been repulsed and continued northward, St Paul's may have been finished with a minaret, you'd be living under Sharia law, have Friday afternoon beheadings in Leicester Square, and there would definitely have been no Enlightenment.

[jomifl]

Khandro, I cannot imagine wherefrom you get your gloomy outlook. Perhaps a more enlightened Europe could have repulsed the moorish or musseman hordes more effectively with access to scientific knowledge. We can only speculate.